Carbon Fibre Custom Tightbore

[L473ncy]

Originally Posted by krap101

You may be right about the metal, but I thought that all you needed was a conductive material, and CF is.

I'd imagine a powdercoat would either be too "tacky" or not smooth enough. Over time I guess it would wear down, but it would likely wear unevenly, so accuracy should go way down.

I'm wondering whether a glass barrel would be possible... :P

You might actually be right, like I said I haven't taken Chem in a while so if all you need is something conductive then that would work but I swear that I remember it's like the cations and anions in the solutions that get attracted and "plate" the material or something.

As for powdercoat you also might be right as well. I know it's got something to do with introducing static electricity into the material and the "pigments" plating themselves onto the object.

Glass, I could see so many problems, plus you have the problem of people possibly (accidentally?) running something like BioBB's or other such BB's that are known to make glass shatter (ie. ceramic spark plug + glass).

[krap101]

I just suggested glass because it is relatively easy to work with, and because it is very smooth, and sort of as a joke :P.

How I understand it, electroplating is just when you give your piece (our barrel in this case) one charge and your plating (it would be like a metal solution of some sort) another charge. When you put them together, they will attract, and you should be able to control the thickness by either duration or intensity, or both(voltage or current, I don't remember ><). I'm not even sure anymore if the piece needs to be conductive, you just need a separation of charge (one case is cations and anions). I haven't taken chem in awhile either, so I'm borderline making stuff up, so don't be afraid to call me out :P

[doc_pathfinders]

If you were going for CF, follow what the market is doing..

Stainless steel barrel with a CF outer sleeve.

http://www.carbonfiberbarrel.com/
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=422271

i really don't see how it would be a better idea to make it from CF rather then have a conventional (SS) one made for you by a company that has a reputation for making them well, and at worst you can return a non-functional/damaged/incorrectly made barrel and get another one.

IF carbon fiber barrels gave any benefit, i guarantee you someone in japan or the philippines would have done it and while i know that innovation is needed and we should always think outside the box, i believe that you'll be happier with a 'ready made' barrel.

less stress and less to go wrong

unless you want this as your project, in which case please tell us the results when you get them back

also, electroplating CF, it's not easy.
check the US patent office for the latest procedures and ideas. There is one for carbon filament involving the use of a coupling agent, metallization procedure, electroless plate it and then electroplate. resulting in a higher adhesion characteristic.

problem is that carbon fiber conducts along the strands very well but across the strand it's a pretty good insulator.

[Papabois]

Hi gang,

Carbon fiber is my game, and at one time, I too was thingking about offering carbon fiber barrels. But it'd be just another "What else could I make from Carbon" thing, so I didn't start it.

The OP is talkng about pultruded carbon fiber tube, that any hobby store can get (see BF Carbon). Those tubes are made with all the fibers going in one direction, so they are strong lenthwise, but crush easily. No good for airsoft. Must be stong!

Then there are filament-wound tubes. The fibers' arrangement is going in more directions, so the tube is stronger. See composite paintball air tanks.

Then there is wraped tubes. The carbon is hand-wrapped around a mandel, and then compressed onto it via vacuum-bagging.

The last two methods are best because it's going to make a very strong lay-up.

To make a good carbon fiber barrel (how I'd do it), the mandrel ( a precision groung, highly-polished tool-steel mandrel), must be made. The first layer against the mandrel (treated with mould-release agents), is a graphite powder-rich epoxy resin mixture. This will make the inner surface very hard and very slick, like the running pads of lah-dee-dah hydroplane race boats. So tuff and slick, that bearings for shaft outputs can be made with it.
Next, the reinforcing carbon fiber layers added, the hole thing bagged up, and cooked in an oven, so that the epoxy cures to it's hardest state. Also, the steel mandrel expands in the oven, slightly making the carbon tube bigger, so that when it cools the mandrel can be pulled out. The size of the mandrel would have to be ground to a diameter, that reflects the expension to the exact temperature expansion.

So no need to electroplate anything. And yes Carbon Fiber conducts.

The outside of the barrel then would have to be shaped, to fit in the gun.
Unlike metal, you can't just grind into the stuff to make slots, and such. The fibers get cut / discontinued, and now there is a weak non-reinforced area that will fail. Giving Carbon fiber even more bad rap, when it is always the engineering that fails, not the material!

So, an outside mould would be needed as well, and a moulding method called compression-moulding will be needed. A precise shape inside, and a precise shape outside, to jam the fibres into a solid super-strong shape. End result....Very Expensive precision tooling needed, very expensive product. A really fucken good product, but will be to expensive. And not needed, since stainles, coated aluminum, brass etc are all doing a super job, and doing it very effiently production wise.

[megabeers]

wow..great posts and great ideas...this is the kind of thing i was after, im not here to push anything, just playing with ideas. thanks guys. i look forward to more interesting discussions and i'm glad to have 'joined' this forum.

[Dynamo]

(shakes head)... some really dumb ideas here.. CF should never be used in an application where friction could be applied to it. CF is a structural material, not for use as a mechanical replacement for metals.
i don't understand why anyone would want to even try and make something like this.. you want a light barrel? get one made from aluminum.
the whole idea behind this thread should fall under the saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
i could build a car out of Lego and tooth picks.. doesn't make it a good idea. stick to punching numbers into a cnc machine, leave the engineering to engineers.

[pusangani]

this is the same guy that thought OC filled bb's were a good idea...

[Qlong]

Another horrible idea, surface hardness of the material is an important factor in determining the life and precision of the barrel. If you have a material moving along another material of the same magnitude of hardness, you get wear on both your barrel and BB, surface hardness is related to the wear resistance of the material, who is going to spend that extra amount hardening a soft material when metal is cheaper and more available. Same principle as to why guns have hardened steel barrels that shoot out softer materials such as lead, brass, copper etc.

[Papabois]

There are many tooling additives that can be added to plastics, to give the very hard surfaces. See carbide tooling powder or gelcoat, and ceramic powder. Or the graphite mentioned earlier. Not to mention the reduced friction of polished graphite.

The fibers would not be directly contacting the projectile. They would be used only for their structural properties. The projectile would contact the hard coating.
Maybe some of the harder BB's (like ceramic) might start to gaul the surface, but I'm sure that will happen with whatever is used for a barrel, that is softer than ceramic.

Main thing...Carbon fiber not needed for barrels.

Reinforced plastics for grips, stocks and other furniture sure, But no fiber look on a gun. It just looks dumb and out of place.

Even though Such exotic reinforcements came from the defense industry, cosmeticizing of the reinforcement to sell it to the masses, has made it look outta place on arms. I think anyways. Next fad will be gun-bluing your Honda hoods....

[Donster]

Originally Posted by megabeers

i spoke on the phone with a guy today capable of making a 6.01mm +.01/-00 ID carbon fibre tube 700 mm in length. pick an OD. as for the machining that's something else.

why do you even want a 6.01 barrel? It isn't ideal for accuracy. Stick with a 6.03 or 6.04 for ideal accuracy results.

[AoiShikaku]

Originally Posted by Donster

why do you even want a 6.01 barrel? It isn't ideal for accuracy. Stick with a 6.03 or 6.04 for ideal accuracy results.

He is using a new material that does dampen the vibrations which could mean that at 6.01 he could achieve what one would normally get with a 6.03 barrel with 6mm bbs. The BB could make less contact with the barrel while still providing the air behind the BB. Still speculation until we get some results in.

This is experimental and I'm glad he went with the 6.01 because he could be on a new barrel that would possibly be more effective in accuracy which a lot of people would be extremely interested in.

Also if the 6.01 with 6mm BBs is a failure he can go pick up 5.94mm bbs, but let's hope the consistency of the barrel is more than enough for a 6mm BB's.


(TO OP) - be sure to check the diameter of each BB you fire and keep em clean so we can get some consistent figures we can go by when you get the barrel done. We don't want to see deviations because of a BB infraction.

[graff]

http://www.deadlywind.com/products/8...cf-barrel.aspx

its been in use in paintball for a long time. now granted, the paintball isn't touching the barrel on the way out as much as a bb would be but the idea is still the same.

[AoiShikaku]

Originally Posted by graff

http://www.deadlywind.com/products/8...cf-barrel.aspx

its been in use in paintball for a long time. now granted, the paintball isn't touching the barrel on the way out as much as a bb would be but the idea is still the same.

Yeah that's what sparked my interested in the CF barrel because I was familiar with the paintball one. The problem about the airsoft one is that I could not for the life of me find anyone who has ever done it.

In theory it should apply, but in practice... could be a whole different issue.

I'm pretty excited to see the results from the tests.

[flack]

The surface of a plastic bb is a lot harder then the gelatin shell of a paintball.

It might work but for what? 2000bbs?

You will get abrasion and the 6.01mm wont stay at 6.01mm forever

I dont understand why you try to reinvent the wheel.... I mean a 6.01mm barrel is a freakin 6.01mm no matter what its made of... and they are proved to suck.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...ghlight=6.01mm
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...ghlight=6.01mm

[AoiShikaku]

I agree with you on all the points you had listed... had to try it out for myself too so I could achieve the perfect balance between range and consistency with my near full PDI L96.

Right now it's an experiment.
In conventional tight bore barrels the BB's make contact with the barrel more frequently with a 6.01 than a 6.03 but it's the carbon fiber and resin/epoxy that could provide enough dampening from the impact from the initial hit that could cause less impacts as it travels down the barrel and will make the BB float more fluidly through the barrel providing better accuracy at that size.

My initial concern (page 1 of this thread) was the ability for the barrel to hold up after X amount of rounds are put through it. Carbon fiber is generally held together with resin and/or epoxy which will wear away after use giving inconsistency through the barrel over time.

People have discussed other materials to use as an alternative (read the previous pages in the thread as they have been discussed), OP decided to still move forward with the project. Depending on what he chooses to hold it together hasn't been determined but many ideas were thrown out there for him to try to help him build the best carbon fiber barrel possible. I personally like the electro plating idea that Krap mentioned to help keep the barrel consistent over a longer period of time.

He is basically trying something new that no one here has really tried. I'm interested in the results because he could be on to something that could better the entire airsoft community for both range and accuracy.

Keep in mind the wheel was invented, but ideas were thrown at it to make it as efficient as possible, such as gears, car tires, fans, barrings, etc. Right now he is doing the same thing. He is trying out a new material that no one knows about because no real tests have been done and if they have no one has really posted anything about any results. You can't really say that a carbon fiber 6.01 or 6.03 will be better because you can't find any results about it. Sure you can go by conventional tight bore barrels, but it's not like he is using the same materials that a tight bore barrel has.

It's an experiment and quite frankly I'm fully supporting him on this idea. If he fails he can try smaller sized BB's which are more common in a random bags of BBs than it is to find larger sized BB's. BB manufactures have anywhere from 0.00mm to 0.1mm (sometimes even more with crapy manufactures) deviances in sizes in their packs of BBs. Easier to go down than up in size.