M14 clusterf**k
 

I recently became hellbent on getting myself an m14...

turns out there pretty damn rare and hard to figure out. I tried looking in on the classifieds and theres nothing but tm's and thats way to rich for my blood im looking for an AEG under 400$ so i went to the retailers checked things out. i settled on th new version of the agm Mp0008 (m14).

But it turns out that agm is part of a vast and incredibly complicated network or company working for other companies that subcontract for someone, elsethen rebrand to another and end up selling there own guns without even knowing.

final result i completely lost and i have know clue whats an agm and what isnt...

so please help me, specifically with the m14's that sasksoft armoury and halifax airsoft are selling.


p.s. why is bob's airsoft page still open if he doesnt exist ??

honestly, if you want a good quality M14, TM is your only choice. They make the best M14s on the market. sure, you can get an AGM or a CYMA, but their tolerances will be off slightly, so even if you upgrade it to the same level as a TM, it will not be as good.

If you have your heart set on an M14, but cannot buy a TM (your mistake though), get an Echo-1 M14. That would mostly likely be your best bet.

hope that helps

that really is the problem i know that tm really is my best bet but i really CAN'T, as in do not have the possibility to pay 500$ for a gun... as weak as that sounds.

so i kind of have to unless, someone is crazy enough to sell ma a tm m14 for 400$

You should save your money then.

Buying anything but a TM for an M14 is a colossal waste of time and money.

is the agm that bad ??

I was able to get a used but in good shape TM M14 shipped for $400 with extras...

ON the classifieds? that was probably i very lucky find...

QFT.

Ask anyone who's owned M14s. It's TM or it's a waste of time and money.

I know it's not the answer you're looking for, specially if you have your heart set on an M14 and you don't have the money for a TM... You might get some other M14 and it'll be kind of okay (depending on how much reference you have with other guns) but at some point down the road... well, don't say we didn't try to warn you.

Plus I mean, if you have 400 now, unless all you have for income is a paper route you should be able to save $50-100 a month (sacrifice elsewhere, less beer, movies, strippers whatever): by summer you'll have $600-800 and you can get something good. And if your budget is really so tight you can't spare $50/mo, bit of friendly advice: stay away from airsoft.

and dont even attempt reenacting or living history, its worse.

I already told you by PM, the M14 long I sell is AGM.

There are people who have posted pretty good experiences with later version of the G&G M14 over at Arnies, so I wouldn't say the sentiment is universal.

What are you talking about? I run a caveman re-enactment club that holds events at the beginning of every month: for the price of an old tacky 80's synthetic fur coat from the Salvation Army and a wood club, you're good to go. :P

Thats often the problem if its not the best quality ppl will usually say its not worth the money... i read lots of reviews and most ppl never had problems with agm's or G&G's, well at least not nay more so than usual.

I've contemplated over a G&G M14 off and on for a long while now.

I've heard one extreme to the next.
"Awesome gun no idea why people insist on TM" and I've heard "It really is worth a load of crap and nothing more. Needed new parts out of the box" sort of things.

There is 2 reviews I came across on here. They both were basically in those 2 categories.

If you're possibly willing to spend on a project gun then go with whatever you are content with. Just look up some reviews and be sure you understand and accept what may come, or may not.


No shit!

I'm sitting here wondering what do I kill my wallet with first... And when.
Thankfully as a German I can kill some of you yanks and steal some things off you guys, so I get to save. Or I get lucky and somebody has a spare set of this or that and is very generous :)

maybe he didn't believe you hehe

Someone once told me something that goes along that line: if you want a regular AEG in a M14 body, any clone M14 will do. If you want a semi automatic / full auto sniper gun, get a TM.

get an aftermath m14 :)

Lolwut? Aftermath rebrands ACM, and often the old models (like their Lycaon which is the early CYMA CM.023) and that's crap.

Don't.

A friend just bought an AGM M14, the amount of money he is about to pour into this item to bring it up to his personal specs is actually over the cost of some of the used and upgraded items in the classifieds. However I suppose its all personal preference in what you like. He thought he would save some money getting an upgrade platform and tinkering with it. Till he discovered that he now wants to replace everything about it.

EDIT

After a quick viewing of the classifieds I can see that their are some more expensive setups. I also see things in that I would deem in a reasonable price range as well. If you are really hell bent on saving money I can tell you right now that there is a G&G available in the classifieds for about $450.00. If you dont mind G&G.

G&G really isn't worth the money. Not nearly enough upgradable parts, and some parts are incredibly difficult to source and are only made by either G&G and CA; some after market parts are very hard to source.

As a past (and kind of present) owner of an AGM M14, I'll tell you now not to waste your time. :B It's just not worth it. Save up for a TM. The M14 I purchased from AGM is, for lack of a better word, disgusting. Sure, it works if you want to be king of shit mountain, but the team and I hated it so much we started calling it "The Slut" and used it as a loaner weapon for newbies.

I've been lookng into it and im pretty sure that a g&g is my best bet but i'm not sure about it still because ever review i find is really mixed. What are youre impressions?

G&G is never your best bet when it comes to M14's.

I've owned 3 Marui M14's, 1 AGM... I've worked on SEVERAL more.

The TM M14 is VASTLY superior to everything else.

The G&G and CA M14 use a non-TM system. The aftermarket caters to TM. Therefore TM is the superior gun.

Save your money, don't rush your decision.

Not to sound like a dick but why do you NEED IT NOWNOWNOW? Why can't you keep the money you have and set it aside, then start adding more as you can in order to get a TM? Airsoft isn't going anywhere (I hope not) and as long as you have enough patience and money you can get anything you want.

When you settle for something, especially when warned against it, you will then come back to us and say "My AGM/G&G/whatever gun isn't working anymore! What do I do?" followed shortly by "Ok so I bought the parts I need but they dont fit! What do I do?" then followed by "Ok I'll just save up my money and get a TM". This happens like clockwork around here by people who refuse to take our advice when we give it to them and just do what they want anyway. Why bother asking us for advice if you will do whatever you want despite our headed warnings and advice from experience?

I have owned a G&G M14 that I received in a trade and unless you get the Veteran version (real wood stock and nicely factory upgraded internals) then your wasting your money. And the veteran is only slightly cheaper than a TM, if not on par with one. They use proprietary mags that won't fit TM or King Arms M14 mags, thus making mags more expensive. Im not sure about the parts compatibility but G&G have a tendency of being proprietary with certain parts/upgrades. I have since gone the TM route and will NEVER look back. The TM is lightyears ahead of any other M14 hands down, as with most other AEG/GBBs.

I really thought my comment said it all.

I guess I should have been clearer, simply reference the posts above this and you will understand why going that extra mile for something with quality is better.

Lol well i really can be quite patient... And im fully conscious of the fact that tm is just infinitaly better then the rest... But i'm just not that eager to put 500$+ into airsoft, be it an m14 or anything elsr

well than im sorry to say, then airsoft isn't the hobby for you. decent starter guns cost at least $500, and that doesn't take into account upgrades to allow your gun to compete with everyone else's.

Look into either paintball, or Cansoft guns. If you are heartset on airsoft, Cansoft guns would be your best bet. Most of them (SRCs especially), are better than some of the full black clones that are currently on the market.

I wouldn't go as far to say Airsoft is not for him if he can't/won't blow $500

You just got the budget your stuff, and find deals. Being Age Verified REALLY helps.

If you're into airsoft (Been to a game and like it) you can pick up a decent gaming rifle for ~$200 ish.

Sure you might need it upgraded/fine tuned/worked on after sometime, but that's not overly expensive especially if you do it your self.

Mags can be had cheap ish $100 or so.

See if you can borrow/rent a battery from somebody. That will save you from buying a good charger and batteries off the start but you really should invest in those sooner then later.

Buy a few belt pouches or a cheap vest to hold said mags. Throw on a pair of boots are you're golden.

Goggles are nice as most places who rent them don't have overly great quality but they will do, or ask and see if somebody can lend you one.

You can pretty well get a small basic load out for under $4-500.
After sometime, upgrade here and there.

You don't need to upgrade an already good airsoft gun. Whatever happened to "upgrade the player not the gun". Now yes there is a minimum standard that it should perform at before you can say "upgrade the player" but a stock TM vs a clone that you put $100-200 into will pretty much cost the same in the end and perform at around the same level and after that it's just a matter of upgrading the player.

I am definitaly not missing any gear... as of this moment i have everything i need gear wise, and i owe that to my dads 30 some years of accumulating old military gear. i have boots pouches hats socks a ghillie suit bdu's, the works. and i have my secondary ( USP)

so basically the money i have left is only for my primary gun. and thats just about 400$ give or take.

and that really is the maximum im comfortable paying so TM is right out of the question.

no im saying that after he plays for a year or so, he will mostly likely want to upgrade his gun to compete with the other upgraded guns. these upgrades could potentially cost a lot

as for your point about buying a clone and upgrading it. i dont think that is necessarily a good point. you upgrade a clone to the same levels as the real deal, and the non-clone will outperform every time.

You're talking about me so I thought I'd clear some things up:

1) It's not an AGM, it's a CYMA. Only difference in my mind is the externals, on the CYMA they we actually adequate. And I got the CYMA at at a good sale price.

2) I always expected to spend a large sum of money on it over the long run, I never anticipated it being good 'out of the box'.

3) I already own many of the upgrade parts I'd require.

4) Because of the above fact, for the cost of a full internal swap out (remember, I found the externals to be adequate) the cost is equal to or still a little cheaper for a used TM; not including the money I would then spend upgrading the TM.

Im always talking about you, when am I never talking about you.
AGM-CYMA, turd-gold painted turd.

Way to get drunk last night and almost kill yourself on my deep freeze.

Like everyone else is saying get the TM....I love mine to death!

Dont buy G&G M14 if you dont want to spend 200$ in mags. I know by experience. TM mags does not fit in G&G and CA m14's

Ahh, that reminds me of my early days. I told myself I was only going to spend $350 on one AEG and that was it! That's all I was going to spend on this strange and ridiculously expensive thing called Airsoft. Nobody was going to convince me otherwise!

Then after I started actually playing with other people and realized my gun was crap, I blew another $200 trying to upgrade the internals. Of course, the gun was crap in the first place so all the internals were just a waste of money or didn't work or everything just broke.

I sold it all at a major loss and spent the right amount of money on good stuff that lasts, that has aftermarket parts, that works.

If you aren't going to spend more than $400 on an M14, don't buy an M14 if you intend to play seriously with it. If it's just for a wall hanger or skirmishes, fine, go for AGM. If you intend to field it, fielding an AGM or G&G M14 will just not be that much fun unless you like punishment. Your gun will be overly long, it will be overly heavy, and you won't have the range nor accuracy (nor the ability to upgrade to the desired range and accuracy) where you will be effective with it.

This is still your money and the choice is still yours though. People are simply speaking from experience because we have all have regrets and try to steer people the right way.

thank you, thats reply should almost be stickied...

i'll start from the beginning, I want Two things out of my gun ACCURACY and durability... EVERYTHING ELSE is optional... even look and originality. so if someone tells me that i can get the same accuracy and durability from an armalite as from a nicely upgraded M14, than hot damn you just made my day...

i want an m14 because it seems ( and to some of my research) that the longer barrel and V4 mechbox give it the two things i want out of my gun out of the box.

Now dont get me wrong i intend on upgrading to get a tight bore and better pistons and so on and so forth. but what i'm looking for is the gun that will give me ACCURACY and DURABILITY while having to change the least amount of parts.

SO feel free to reassure my little newb mind and tell me that it is possible to get a less costly make and model than the m14 and still get a DM RIFLE capability ( as in not having to buy an m4 and turn into a bloody spr 3000$ later)

You're not going to get 'durability' out of a china clone m14.

China clone = durability? Lololol, No, not at all.

Theres a reason why everyone here is telling you to save up for the proper brand. TM is simply flawless in that regard. Leave the thing stock, slap in a tightbore and a good hopup and your gun will be singing.

If you want quality you better pay for it. The more you cheap out, the less happy you will be. This has been proven over and over and over again. We have already given you the answers you need. If you want to get the answers you want then talk to a mirror. I don't see why you still feel that you can get good quality, reliable performance from clones that are notorious for just the opposite.

Let me spell it out for you again just so its clear: clones have MUCH lower quality control thus resulting in minor to catastrophic failures, lower standards for tolerance of the parts they clone thus decreasing the chances of upgrades/replacement parts will even fit or do what their supposed to do.

Is there anything else that isn't clear?

Reliability and durability = TM M14,
TM M14's have shorter barrels than an M16, but a MUCH better hop-up system that makes them much more accurate and reliable shot to shot.

They also have V7 mechboxes, not V4.

Anything will be reliable and durable if you're willing to spend the money on it.

The less you spend, the less reliable it will be (This is all true to a point)

A BNIB, stock TM M14 firing at 300 FPS with quality ammo will out-shoot ALOT of upgraded clones.

Edit:

Not to mention gundoc fees... I can fully upgrade a TM gun in about 3/4ths the time it takes me to upgrade a clone... Tolerance issues make my head hurt.

In your case then don't get an M14.

If you want Accuracy and durability and don't care about any other aspect then I would highly suggest a more common platform. The AK or M16 will do you fine in those regards.

Get a decent base to start with (ie. a "name brand" such as TM, G&P, VFC, CA, etc.). After that, toss in a TBB (6.03mm is what is recommended instead of a 6.01mm IIRC) and a quality hop up unit and rubber (ie. Prometheus Neo Hop Up unit, and a Prometheus soft rubber) and you'll be laughing all the way.

sounds good. Thanks

thats quite honestly what i wanted to hear

One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that barrel length and a TBB don't mean everything. They help but if the initial base platform is crap there's only so much you can do.

You can still have a TM Mk.23 or a Hi-Capa that's tuned properly be more accurate and out range a long barrelled rifle.

In addition if anything breaks, you have a plethora of aftermarket parts support (and they're cheaper to boot) since it's more common more companies will make stuff and they need to undercut other companies for those same parts. Whereas, if you have a less common rifle and not as many people make parts for it then good luck getting cheap parts, they'll probably price gouge you because they don't sell as many parts and have to somehow recover the costs of making parts for that specific rifle. It's like making a million of ___ part for a Honda Civic (smartish idea) vs. making a million of ___ part for a Ferrari or something (just a stupid idea cause I don't think that many people will ever have that part break on them and have to replace it, instead they'll probably make 10,000 of that part and because not many other shops make the same part they can price gouge you because there aren't many of that part available and it costs more to make a smaller run of products than it does to make a million of the same product).

Anyways, you don't/won't need to "upgrade" the M16 to an SPR if you don't want to, it's just externals that make up what you call it. Internals are what matter, you could have an SPR with just external upgrades shooting stock or the same M16 with internals upgraded and shooting more accurately and be more durable than the M16 converted to the SPR.

Anyways, I'll leave you to whatever you choose and just keep in mind that if you want a reliable and durable gun then start off with a good base. After that it's a matter of hop up chamber, rubber, and TBB to get consistency/accuracy. After that all you need to do is just upgrade the player.

In airsoft, unless you get past 600mm long inner barrels and have a proper high quality hop up, matching nozzle, proper unported cylinder, etc. length doesn't matter! (that's what she said)

I have an Mp5 here that has more range and accuracy than my friend's TM M14 and it's about 1/5th the length and 25% of the weight and half the cost to build.

M14s are also hell to work on so unless you are experienced at gun work or know a gun doctor who is experienced with M14s, I do not recommend it. M14s are also heavy as hell.

If you buy that AGM, you'll have neither accuracy, nor durability (the AGM M14 body is strange plastic that feels like it's cheesy bakelite from the 60s).

If you are intent on being a DM, check with whatever group you are going to be playing with as to their DM/sniping rules. Some of them do not allow AR platforms (unless SPR) or guns that not permantely disabled from full-auto, etc.

Ya Wellington thing i was wondering, of i get i kwa m4, would i have to downgrad, seeing as how it's 400 fps stock.


I've been asking this question alot and ppl keep telling me different things. So you guys are saying that the gun you choose doesnt necessarily mean More accuracy, but it probably gives a higher potential for it... As in an mp5 isnt necessarily less acurate thanatos an m14 but the m14 has thé potential to become much more accurate ....

The biggest contributors to accuracy and range are:

Proper Compression
High Grade BBs .25 at the very least, maybe .28 or .30 for a baseline
and a good quality hopup.

Everything else comes secondary.

by proper compression what do you mean exactly? how does that transfer into parts ?

Cylinder, piston, piston head, nozzle, etc.

The mechbox works under the laws of compressed air creating the propulsion of the projectile. Air is compressed by the piston being slammed forward by the spring and concentrated by the air nozzle behind the BB sitting in the hopup chamber. The idea with a mechbox is to have zero air loss anywhere in the box so that compression can be had for the highest value and to remain constant. If there is air loss the compression suffers and will be translated to the BB by loss of FPS, inconsistent trajectories and overall insufficient performance.

So basically proper airseal all around as compression is only in the cylinder. Air could leak between nozzle and hop-up (common problem). What are the FPS limits where you play?

Ragboy - you are right that the M14 has much more potential to be far more accurate and have better range. I know of a couple M14s like that. They have about $600+ worth of upgrades/gun doc fees on top of the original cost and you always start with a TM otherwise it's a headache.

Same with VSR-10 sniper rifles, a couple hundred in upgrades are generally what any sniping platform requires.

Also thing with airsoft is with enforced FPS limits, the field is pretty balanced in terms of maximum range one can achieve in ideal circumstances. The only solutions are to move to heavier grade bbs and get higher quality hop-ups. All the upgrades are just to improve accuracy and not power.