WETTI/AWSS - M4/SCAR/HK416 - Technical Summary Thread
 

This thread is not meant to replace other reference sources. It is meant to distill down the masses of information available from ASC members and choice info from other sources.

As with any forum material...common reference sources very quickly get watered down with repeat questions, half-ass guesses and lack of follow up detail.

So, in an effort to avoid that (and this might fail) it'd be a good opportunity to brain dump definitive personal experiences with mods, tweaks, issues/fixes regarding the WETTI AWSS SCAR, WETTI AWSS M4, WETTI 416.

Please don't post one liners...guesses...heresay...price/customer sales/delivery issues (this is a tech discussion, not a sales/market bitch thread). This is not a discussion of whether GBBRs are viable, nor is it a comparision thread between makes/brands/models.

Please do post info re. fit, function, break/fix issues. Specs, adjustments, practical observations. Links (helpful titles are...helpful) to other good resources.

As you post...I'll strip out the info and merge it into the first couple of posts in this thread. Most likely, I'll not note who said what in the compilation. It's not that I don't think recognition of source isn't important, but more so that I'm not a very good editor..so if gaining credit/fame/cudos is a must have for you to post, don't. If I ask that you delete your post...it'll be for content/editing reasons, please don't take personal offense.

Thanks,

Tys

WETTI AWSS Links
 

**need help here guys**
Please post links to other sources (specific to a thread) and I'll gather them here. An informative title instead of just the URL link goes a long way!!
*******************

Arnies
* Arnie's Airsoft UK Forum's Massive GBBR M4 thread (lots of good stuff, but tons of junk too)

Gas Guns Forum
WE-Tech / AWSS (AFC Patented) system (WETTI Thread. WE rep frequently responds and announces new stuff.)

WE Wiki Site (good source of distilled info...specific to WETTI. Manuals, Part #s, etc...)


Other ASC Threads
Kevorkian's WE AWSS SCAR thread

Sim123456's WE M16A3/Nato Steel barrel review

Other

WETTI AWSS Tech Notes
 

Nozzle/FPS Adjustments
One of the most notable points of the AWSS M4 is that it shoots really hot right out of the box. Velocities (which should be measured with 0.20g BBs and a decent chronograph) typically exceed 500fps with Green Gas (propane). For many fields and venues around here and elsewhere, that is too hot. There's been lots of info already posted on ways to reduce the FPS. Note: The WE SCAR seems to consistently shoot either just a hair over or a hair under 400fps right out of the box...so many write ups are M4 specific and may not have the same affect in the SCAR.
Note: Some of the half-clear M4's were coming in right close to 400fps too..some weren't.
Conclusion: DO NOT go by what it should/might shoot...chrony it to be sure before/during every game.

In general, most methods of adjusting FPS have been focused on positioning the floating valve further forward, which will limit the amount of gas directed down the barrel. Here are some summaries of the different ways (note, these might not be the only ways...if you find others, post up)

Add a spacer behind the floating valve or modify float valve- On WE's forum (***edit link***) they have some pictures of how they insert a solid metal bushing (I think that it's a standard 6mm CA bushing) inside the nozzle assembly. On Arnie's forum guys reference shaving down a common craft bead and slipping it into the nozzle assembly (i.e. not taking it apart)...measurements of the length of the bead vary around 2.4mm (I think...need to check). From anecdotal notes, others have found a compatible nut and tried to thread it onto the rod that protrudes into the nozzle (didn't hold).

Some guys with OCD and too much time on their hands...have gone so far as to machine small brass cylinders that fit inside the nozzle assembly, threaded to fit the end of the rod. Varying sucess with lengths of 2.4-2.74mm.

The same dummy has gone even further and machined a series of brass replacement floating valves...with different bore and hole diameters. I'm (oops, I mean HE) isn't finished testing at the time of this writing. They work and will get the velocity down to 400fps consistently...but not 350fps (which is a common indoor FPS limit).

***EDIT Sept 19, 2009***
Due to a happy mistake, I received a new nozzle and brass chamber for my M4 AWSS. Unlike my stock gun, this nozzle was shaped just like the SCAR AWSS nozzle in that it was stepped and wider at the body. It was mounted on a long (regular) M4 rod and piston unit though...odd. The short SCAR length rod was included in a baggie...so I wonder if it comes that way or if they mix and match at the factory. Anyways...although disappointed at first, I tore into my M4 and compared the parts. The cross pins and external cuts/dimensions matched between the "SCAR" unit and the "M4" unit. Yeah! As long as you use the "SCAR" nozzle with the "SCAR" brass chamber/tube (and similar for similar in the case of the M4 parts)...you're good to go...straight drop-in swap. I had cut my inner barrel to CQBR length and with the stock "SCAR" nozzle...FPS was bang on 400fps w/ 0.20g BBs.

Shameless rip-off of Kevorkian's SCAR Nozzle Pic
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c.../WESCAR016.jpg

If, after a lot of shots and taking your piston/bolt assembly apart several times, you notice that semi and full auto are behaving erratic...check that the UHMW spacer that sits on the body of the piston (to keep it centered in the bolt) hasn't nudged itself up towards the front of the bolt. Mine was repeatedly moving up, sort of centering itself on the two holes of the piston body...moving it back fixed it all up. I replaced it with a new spacer (that isn't loose at all) and things work just fine now. It's probably because I've disassembled mine over a dozen times that it's loosened up...as new, it's a quite a tight press fit.

Main Rifle Functional Issues/Fixes
Kevorkian's SCAR Bolt/Hinge Plate Pics and Thoughts

Magazine Functional Issues/Fixes
Manchovie's General Comments

Accuracy/Feeding/BB Weights

EDIT May 3, 2010

Nozzle
* all current gen M4's have the new style nozzle, the same as the one released with the SCAR. It is sometimes refered to as the "CO2" nozzle. You can shoot duster, propane and CO2 through it.

Version Info (great summary from Spartan117)
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=102339
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are many people out there that have wondered about the WE system and its different generation models. These go from Gen 1-4. I will briefly explain the difference between each generation. **Note This information is based solely on what I have gathered about the WE system**


GEN 1 (m4 only)

- Nozzle is made out of brass and has only 1 O-ring seal.
- The hammer has no roller ball bearing for the Bolt carrier group (BCG) to ride smoothly
- A generation 1 m4 has no markings


GEN 2 (m4 only)

- Uses the same brass nozzle and single O ring
- The hammer now has an added ball bearing to allow the BCG to move back and forth smoothly
- A generation 2 WE m4 has laser engravings
- Body of the gun, I believe is an anodized finish like the rest of the generations from 2-4


GEN 3 (m4, hk416, scar)

- The nozzle is now made of stainless steel and now has a double O ring for better seal
- Has the same ball bearing on the hammer
- Engraved and anodized body
- SCAR has a reinforced hinge plate to prevent breakage.


GEN 4 (AKA CO2 system: M4, hk416, SCAR)

- The nozzle again is made of stainless steel, double O rings for better seal, and is now reinforced with a bearing or plate to help the bolt withstand the force of propane, green gas, and CO2.
- ball bearing on hammer
- body is anodized and engraved


One last thing to mention.....other than the different generations there are also the WETTI AWSS models which are meant for military and LE training. Not sure what the different is, but according to what James, from WE, has said, the WETTI version has reinforced parts. "

WETTI AWSS Aftermarket Add-Ons/Upgrades
 

TSC M4 Nozzle for WETTI AWSS M4

RA Tech WE SCAR Nozzle

New Hopup Rubber (Black)

6.025mm Chrome Tightbore

Fit/Function External Modifications

WETTI AWSS Field Reports
 

C3SK's Field Report from RAWDON

SniperChic's Field Report

damn, my charging handle on v3 m4 just broke after I run 1 mag w/ green gas... (green gas killing it)?
Any suggestion on more durable charging handle?

Get a steel one. All the WE ones break.

How To Replace Your "Firing Pin Stop" In Your WE SCAR-L:

If you're running CO2, get the new "firing pin stop". It looks like this. I am in no way endorsing Evike. I am simply providing an example of the part in question. My understanding is that this stock part has a high failure rate. If you don't feel it's important, then don't get it. It's 10 bucks (US), and if you don't mind a small amount of technical work it's easy to replace.

For WE M4 users, it is listed as "Part #066" in your manual. For WE SCAR-L users, it isn't even listed in your manual. I can't speak for the WE M4 users, as I only have a WE SCAR-L, but I can give a rundown of what you will need to do in order to install this part. It is not as daunting as some people might think.

1. Remove your Lower Receiver - pop the pin out, slide the lower receiver forward, then remove it.
2. Locate your Fire Selector switches, and remove them - turn it to 'A', and continue turning it until it is pointing at the 7 o-clock position; locate the small hex screws on both levers; PAY ATTENTION - there is a small steel bearing, sandwiched between the lever and the receiver, held in place by a spring.
3. Remove the steel part of the Fire Selector that the levers were attached to - I find it helps to rotate it while pushing it towards the right side of the receiver. PAY ATTENTION - to its orientation before you remove it. Note the positions of the 'grooves' that let the Fire Selector do its job.
4. Locate the small flat-head screw, found above the Magazine Release button on the right side of the receiver. Unscrew it.
5. Locate the small star-head screw, found inside the receiver, directly above where the grip would be - Unscrew it; you should see (looking down from above, towards the bottom) a second star-head screw near the front of the receiver - you do not need to remove it.
6. Lift the Trigger Assembly out of the Lower Receiver - it helps to push from the trigger on one side, and left from the top. PAY ATTENTION - there is a small, rectangular piece of steel that has a very small 90-degree bend to it (it would look like a capital 'L' from the side); this is on the right side of the Trigger Assembly, but if you rotate the entire object, it may fall out of its position.
7. Locate the part to be replaced. PAY ATTENTION - there is a small spring pushing down on it.

So there you go. You can replace a very important part of your GBB, and you didn't even need to get into the really fun stuff inside the Trigger Assembly.

RA-TECH NPAS for WE M4 is out!!
http://en.ratech.com.tw/img/rag/rag-we/rag_we005-d1.jpg
http://en.ratech.com.tw/img/rag/rag-we/rag_we005.jpg

Just to say that in the M16A3, inner barrel lenght is 509mm, as shown in my review. :)

There are steel replacement "airsoft" ones...or I've read that you can use a real-steel one. The only difference that guys have pointed out is a little bump/nub on the airsoft one...and at least one guy took a real one, drilled and tapped a hole and used a grub screw to create the bump that is needed. Gun Gas Info forum has pics of that.

Do you recall how/why it broke? Was it while you were racking back the charging handle? When you let it snap forward? Was it not all the way forward when you fired the first shot?

An update ago I noted that I had received the "new" "WE M4 CO2 upgrade nozzle" instead of the older slim version that I had received with my M4. The new one looks just like the scar nozzle (longer rod though) and just like Hata's pics of the RA Tech NPAS (minus the adjustment bit).

I swapped in the new chamber that matches the nozzle profile and things seemed to work just great.

However....my nozzle is toast. I'm not 100% sure how, but the thin section by the inlet cutouts have collasped and the nozzle is toast. I suspect that it was more from a jam, where then the nozzle/bolt came smashing into it and the thin stand-offs of the nozzle couldn't take the strain. I kind of wonder if the overall length was too long....but unfortunately I didn't take any measurements of it to compare against my original setup....I kind of doubt that though, they seemed to be a nice fit.

If you look at Hata's pics, you'll note that the plastic tube spacer is missing from the assembly (probably since for the upgrade kit you need to use your stock one from the original assembly). You can see the opaque spacer in my pics back in one of the first posts of this thread.

I think that the length of that spacer is quite critical. It ensures that the nozzle is kept far enough forward so that the nozzle is firmly sealed/seated into the chamber. Obviously if the nozzle was allowed to sit back when the rifle fired, a lot of gas pressure would be lost.

In the event of a jam...the metal nozzle is forced forward by the bolt spring and has the weight/heft of the bolt assembly riding with it. That's enough to smash/crush bbs...and I suspect that if there's no give in the particular jam, the nozzle could suffer damage (as mine did).

So if the objective is to keep the nozzle pressed firmly forward...yet have some give in the event of a jam so the nozzle isn't damaged...then it might be an idea to replace the solid plastic spacer with firm but yeilding rubber.

I might try a bit of rubber tubing, rubber washers, or even a disk of sorbo type material on the next nozzle that I get.

I am shooting in semi at the time it broke and the very last shot, I feel like a spring broken inside the top receiver. The next thing I know is the gun is jam and I can't even pull the trigger.
Attempt to open up, but I can't since the bolt carrier is a little bit backward and I have to remove the upper completely before I can remove the bolt carrier. The Little piece broken off is suck between the bolt carrier and the hop-up, so I have to remove the front set in order to take out the broken piece. :mad:

Mine broke when I pulled it back. I purchased a steel one from Airsoftbuddy which didn't fit. It slid into place but the back was too thick to go in all the way. I filed the opening for a couple minutes and now it's good to go.

I also got in an order of mags. All six were fine, no leaks, but one of them broke right at the loader. A piece broke off so now I need to replace that part. Not a big deal, it's only $5.

I'll be ordering the NPAS for it today so we'll see how it does. My gun is shooting a steady avg of 498fps right now.

Which one did you buy from airsoftbuddy?

which NPAS you ordering? the one for M4 or SCAR? I can't find anywhere selling the one for M4. I msg RA-Tech from GGI but no reply yet.

Buy more than one NPAS kit when you get a lead on it!?! I'll gladly pick one up from you.

A buddy just got his NPAS SCAR nozzle in the mail today and is dropping it off tomorrow. I'll fiddle a bit with it this week.

Tys

The charging handle is called Steel Charging Handle. No brand given, $39. It's solid, just need to file the gun a bit.

I sent RA Tech an email yesterday and got a response this morning. Maybe I'll order a few then. I know this will be a hot item.
*Edit - It's the NPAS for the WE M4.
Have any of you installed the chrome tightbore? WGC has them in stock but until I hear if they're that much better I'll hold off on getting one.

I actually spent some time indoors today testing out the SCAR's. I'm not convinced that I need to install the RA-Tech NPAS kits I got last week...both guns chrono at 335-340 fps using .20g with propane!!! Both are out of the box set-ups!
I will do further testing with the RA-Tech NPAS once my Bomber aluminum bolts arrive!

Anyone else have a chance to do some chrono tests?

My stock* WE AWSS SCAR-L chronoed at 385-425fps with 0.25g BB's when I used Propane. It's no longer a question for me if I will install the NPAS to lower my FPS.

* The only part that isn't stock is the reinforced Firing Pin Stop.

My Scar out of the box was chrono at a local field in the 375-380ish range.

Inital chrony (room temp 19-20C...all on propane) was:
WE M4 AWSS - M4A1 length inner - 540fps w/ 0.20g BBs
WE SCAR - stock - 399-401fps w/0.20g BBs
WE M4 AWSS - stock inner cut down to CQBR length (extends just beyond the threading of the 10" barrel section), CO2 Nozzle (looks just like the SCAR one) - 401fps w/0/20g BBs

I have not chronied yet with 0.25/0.28/0.30 or used duster yet. I hope to chrony both setups with some variations late this weekend.

Griff just got his NPAS valve...I'll detail it shortly. One of my prototypes look seems very similar to it in function.

Tys

For the reinforced Firing Pin stop send a PM to Warchild over at Arnies or here. I know that his group in New York made bunch of them and was selling the extras they had. I have one ebing sent to me already hopefully it will get here soon. Not like I needed it but grabbed it for when the day it does break.

Alrighty, I just received a third WE SCAR (ordered in error) and I tested it out with the chrono...out of the box it shoots 375-380 fps with .20 bb's.

Here are my serial numbers for each of my SCAR's:

1.) Black WE SCAR #0000029 - shoots 335-340 fps
2.) Tan WE SCAR #0000638 - shoots 335-340 fps
3.) Black WE SCAR #0000185 - shoots 375-380 fps

Anyone already order or received M4 NPAS valve??

I got Griffon's NPAS SCAR valve in my shop right now. If you have the "new" M4 chamber the nozzle with fit a M4...they're both the same nozzle (the type that looks like the Scar nozzle).

I installed the nozzle/rod to his bolt 2 nights ago. It's machined as nice as any of the other valves. The kit comes with the adjustment tool, e-clip, rod and nozzle (inc. float valve and spring). He just got the Bomber lightweight bolt yesterday. We'll get that into the rifle later this week.

Check the two allen screws that hold the bolt to the guide rail (not the spring guide). Unless loctited down, they'll loosen off and there'll be a lot of play in the bolt...and thus the nozzle. The nozzle lip with clip the edge of the cylinder...and I think that this transfers a bit of a shock to the nozzle, and it's weakest part is the standoffs of the inlet gas holes. Too much force or repeated impact (either misalignment or jams) and they might crumple. Anyway...that's my theory.

On my M4...I removed the hard white plastic spacer from behind the nozzle and replaced it with a piece/section of rubber that was just a hair longer than the plastic spacer. My wild ass guess is that if there is a bit of give as the bolt comes slamming forward...the rubber will deaden the shock of the impact a bit. In the event of a jam...there'll at least be a bit of give, hopefully taking a bit of the sting out of it. I test fired 1 long burst of FA just gas...and 3 mags of bbs. Seemed to work fine.

RATech NPAS comments
- the spring is the same as the others, but the end piece that goes across the diameter (hard to describe, but if you've seen one, you'll know) of the spring is not there. It's just a normal tubular spring.

- the "adjustment tool" is just a bent piece of tubing that has a allen key grub screw screwed into the end of it (so the head of the grub screw becomes the socket of the tool). Ingeniously simple...and it works.

- The adjustment screw in the nozzle is very nicely made...looks like an M5 screw...it looks a bit bigger than a M4. It has a white o-ring in one part of the threading...I suppose so it doesn't travel too far towards the rear of the nozzle.

- I'll take another look at the rods...but I think that the threaded portion of the stock rod extends a few threads more into the nozzle than the rod that came with the NPAS kit....perhaps for more of an adjustment range? maybe because the flange of the adjustment screw takes up space.

- the e-clip that comes with the RATech kit is silver...whereas the stock one is black. I didn't mic them...but the silver one seems a split-hair thicker. This is good because it removes play from the piston body/bolt lockup.

I just set it in a random position and test fired so far...17deg, 420fps w/0.20.

I might swap it into my M4 CQBR....it's easier to pop the M4 bolt out and twiddle the adjustment than it is to do that with the SCAR. If anything gets loose from taking it apart and reassembling endlessly...I'd rather it be my M4 than his SCAR.

Now...pre-mature comments.
1. You're going to want to loctite the screw. It's not a "nylon-nut" style of thing where it'll hold in whatever setting you leave it at. That said, it's stiff now...but who knows as the rifle shakes and rattles as it shoots.

2. I've mucked around with solid spacers screwed onto the rod. They hold...but each spacer needs to be tuned to each gun's nozzle/setup. So not easily adjustable for temperature variations. I have one setup for 330fps and the other for 360fps. A bit on the low side...but they should work for indoors/outdoors warm-hot days.

3. I've mucked about with dilling/tapping a screw through the stock float valve...that works too. The setup needs to be tweaked to make it usable...but it's essentially the same thing as the NPAS nozzle.

Adjusting these things is going to be fiddly. Aim for a 20-30fps lower than max limit as a safety margin...record some temp/fps readings throughout the day to get a baseline for your setup.

Not yet. I hope it comes this week.

I just installed a Bomber lightweight aluminum bolt and I have to say I'm impressed! Blow back is much crisper and the ROF has noticeably increased too!

More testing over the weekend when I have more time...

Met with Griffon last night...and took his bomber bolt and WarStore CNC part 66? (the knocker delay piece).

The bolt is surprisingly light!

I'll pop it in tonight or Monday.

Tys

My new charging handle is finally on the way here.
Just wonder, what grease are you guys use to maintain your GBBR?

I just use a dab of superlube on the bolt bearing...then shoot a mag or two of oily gas through it now and then. Dry gas might be better for the hopup performance...but the seals in the mags love to have some oil.

NPAS Kit pics

Adjustable valve, crunched nozzle (lower), stock nozzle (upper)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/DSC_6957.jpg

Adjustment tool/valve
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/DSC_6958.jpg

Adjustable valve (right..partially unscrewed) and stock valve
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/DSC_6959.jpg

Different lengths of threading on stock SCAR rod vs. RATECH NPAS kit rod
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/DSC_6961.jpg

Homemade spacer
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/DSC_6962.jpg

WE M4 mag internals installed into Magpul PMag.
 

It can be done...

Before...
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...M4PMags011.jpg

After...
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...M4PMags010.jpg

I'm having trouble with my WE SCAR:
It functions flawlessley in semi auto, but when I fire in full auto, it will ALWAYS double or triple feed, anybody else have any similar issues?

*edit* after some more testing, now full auto doesn't function at all, it will fire once, but then the hammer will be unable to lock back unless i manually cock the gun with my finger off the trigger, meaning that the hammer is no longer being held back until the bolt returns to battery, it's simply rolling forward with the bolt, any suggestions?

This part is prone to breaking in the trigger assembly.
There are some CNC steel versions out there as well made by P.M.C. and you can check them out here:http://www.ipscgm.com/


Reinforced Firing Pin Delay Stop
http://www.airsoftpost.com/images/la..._GR_567_lg.jpg

This is where it's located:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8903/img0365x.jpg

this piece will let it fire in semi auto but not full auto when broken? I will check it out, thanks

nope, just checked it, its not broken

Is your hinge plate broken by chance? Part #66

hey guys, what would be the *essential* components that I should stock up in anticipation of them breaking? The firing pin delay stop listed above is one; the stock hinge plate is another; anything else?

I'm having so much fun with this rifle that I want to make sure when something breaks (and we all know something WILL break eventually), I can quickly swap in the replacement and keep going.

Thanks!

OK now the whole thing is gone, now when i fire semi, sometimes it can get a shot or two out, but then it will just let a tiny bit of gas out of the next trigger pull, like the firing pin isnt striking

OK edit, my firing pin is mauled, i dont know how, so ill need a replacement, anybody else had firing pin problems?

Bonjour...what rifle do you have? SCAR or M4?

FIRST OFF: No rifle that stops working properly ever magically fixes itself. If something stops working normally...STOP using it. Fix the issue and then continue.

Second: There are a couple of known things with these GBBRs. Such as:
- you much cock the action before moving the selector (cock action, put on safe, load mag, cock action to chamber round...that's a nice safe way to do things)...if you don't and force it you'll break something

- if you have a jam...you can't just keep shooting to try and clear it.
--the steel nozzle will chop/smash bbs and then they'll for sure not go down the barrel...and you'll just be slamming your bolt into the nozzle that won't be able to go all the way forward...not a good thing.
--you CAN try to clear a single/double jam with a mag with JUST gas. It may blow out the jam.
--you're best off to clear the jam with an...SHOCK...unjamming rod (aka cleaning rod). The stock plastic ones are not still enough...get a real .22cal/.243 (6mm) cal rod.
--check the nozzle if you find bb fragments...I've had a piece of a chopped bb lodged inside the throat of the nozzle.

-If you have an M4 and it starts to act up...check to see that the white UHMW spacer hasn't ridden forward and is catching the hammer. It should be all the way back. I put a grub screw in mine to wedge it in place and it hasn't been an issue at all.

Parts to stock up on:
1. Hopup rubber - chopped bbs will tear the nubs off the stock hopup rubber. Nice to have that $3 piece on hand if you need it.
2. Part#66 - the CNC Tool Steel version is very nice. The stock ones are knows to wear out with use. (Warstore guys use/make them...they're shooting/gaming with the M4's a lot and have been wearing them out).
3. Nozzles - although the stock stainless steel one can take an enormous amount of abuse...having a backup one is nice (mine came with two).
4. If you have the "old" M4...switch over to the "CO2 upgrade kit"...which is essentially just the SCAR nozzle/chamber. It looks like that's the nozzle they're going to standardize on. It works, I've swapped mine over.
5. If you have a SCAR...the hinge plate.
6. Fill valves for the mags (MadBull replacement fill valves fit...at least they did for mine...and they're rated to CO2).

As you can see...the above list is pretty thin. More often than not these rifles are workhorses.

Tys

I don't own a WE SCAR, but I do own a KSC MP9, and I can't help but ask; has anyone tried putting a buffer on their SCAR bolt/stock plate? It seems to me that putting some padding (moleskin, mousepad :P) will prolong the life of your bolt/stock plate and it may increase cycle rates, too.

Yes...I have done that with some high density foam which I cut to fit. Seems to be less direct shock on the hinge plate. All good to report so far.
I will keep you posted if there is any change. My only concern is that there is a little more pre-load on the hinge plate

OK I have found the root of the problem with my valve striker on my AWSS SCAR, you may want to check your gun:
http://www.airsoftpost.com/replaceme...e-p-31709.html
this was slightly warped, allowing the valve striker to move up just enough that it hit the valve and fired but mashed the bottom corner a bit more with each shot. I took mine off and bent it back and now the gun seems to work fine, I'll probably still need to replace the striker sooner rather than later though.

Also, the gun isn't jamming, it will just triple feed and double feed when in full auto, and I can't explain it, because it runs fine in semi auto.

What bb are you using.

.25 bastards

these things run better on .30 ... reduces cyclic rate .. and reduces multi feeds

have you considered that there may be an issue with your mag?

Do you have a second mag to try to ensure it is not a mag issue?

No I don't have a second mag, but the mag lips on this thing look pretty normal.
I was wondering, could I try one of your mags this friday Brian?
I'll pick up some .3s tonight as well, but i doubt BB weight could make it triple feed so often.
Also, I'll need a new valve striker, anybody got one?

If you've identified a broken/mangled part...I'd suggest that you stop using it until you sort that piece out. These things are pretty tough on parts when everything is working right...when something's out of wack, you risk breaking something else.

Take a look at some of the pics I've posted...look at the damaged/crunched nozzle. I'm pretty sure that's it started off from some pretty nasty jams...and got worse with more use. To the point where it was not sealing at all. I ran it to destruction on purpose.

I'm not sure how the rifle can triple feed in full auto (or else it'd do it in semi too). Unless there is something majorly wront with your bolt/nozzle assembly and it's alignment/movement with the mag feed lips.

If you start with a clear chamber, full mag of gas and bbs, bolt forward.
- insert mag
- rack bolt all the way back, release
- remove mag
---how many BB's are in the chamber (you might need a rod to clear the barrel)? Should be one. If it's more than one you have an immediate issue with either the nozzle, the feed lips or the bolt. Repeat this test to see consistent results.

If you start with a clear chamber, full mag of gas and bbs, bolt forward.
- insert mag
- rack bolt all the way back, release
- semi auto fire 1 shot.
--shot should leave the muzzle, there should be one in the chamber (clear barrel to confirm. Repeat to confirm

If you start with a clear chamber, full mag of gas and bbs, bolt forward.
- insert mag
- rack bolt all the way back, release
- fire a short burst (ideally 2 shots...at most 4...whatever the number count how many shots)
-- did a shot come out each time?

But again...I wouldn't bother doing any of that until you get the knocker problem sorted out. If the knocker isn't hitting the main valve fully/repeatably...then it's not really going to help anything.

Ideally, you'd drop your rifle onto someone elses's lower trigger/grip assembly and isolate the issue in one go.

I've examined the nozzle/hopup/feed lips multiple times, and I still can't come up with anything that looks like it would cause any problems, so it has me stumped, even more so because it only happens in full auto rather than semi auto. Also, for each double or triple feed, there is a dry fire for each BB that was fired in the one shot, I can't remember if the blanks were before or after the double feeds, I think they were before... so wait now that I think of it it sounds like a jam, yea so why would the gun jam only on full auto?

What were the results of the tests I outlined?

I can't do the tests, the gun cannot fire full auto. I'll have to wait till my replacement knocker arrives.

The first test does even require that you shoot the gun....


Never mind forget it.

well I've done that stuff, but the problem doesn't arise when I do that, it is only in full auto, I have no problems when manually chambering a round, or firing semi auto, so all the tests that don't involve the full auto I have already done, and yield no anomalous results.

For some reason (cooldown maybe making it sticky?) the knocker wont fall all the way down when I fire full auto, so the valve clips the bottom edge and the knocker slips off the top of the valve, so I can't fire full auto, semi works fine though.

I inspected the nozzle again, and i notice a slight displacement in the area where yours collapsed, it appears as if it will eventually end up like yours.
did yours destroy itself from constantly jamming, or just from regular use after the initial damage was done? if I'm going to replace it,
I may as well get the NPAS kit, where did you find yours?

*edit* nevermind, upon closer inspection of the pictures you took, it seems that it is just not precisely cut and it is irregularly shaped, what I had assumed was deformation caused by stress seems to be just poor cutting from the factory

AWESOME info dude! Thanks so much!

I have a WE SCAR btw.

I was tinkering with my trigger group and valve knocker, and I got it to be able to fire full auto again, though not too reliable, but enough for me to notice that the jamming and multi feeding seems to have stopped itself, which is odd because things don't usually fix themselves, and the only difference now being I'm using white .25 bastards instead of black .25 bastards... :S

Sure blame the black guy....

So... I got Brodie's SCAR.

To make a long story short - the trigger is busted. Off, that is. Busted off. Just like this guy (and a few dozen others it would seem):
http://gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2045
http://heavyplastic.com/perso/IMG_0066.jpg

So, I scoured the interwebs for a few hours to try and find a replacement. No dice. Not even EVIKE carries the WETTI SCAR AWSS trigger. They have the M4 one (and claims that it works on the SCAR), but the dimensions are clearly different.

Then, I emailed WETTI to see about a replacement (where I can get one, and how much $$$). No reply yet - but I'm patiently waiting.

So I started thinking - and now I'm going to make a run of 50 CNC-machined replacements.


If any of you know where I can get a replacement in the mean time, it would be great to be able to use this gun. I haven't even fired a round yet. LOL

Hi all!

My name is Anders and I live in Sweden. I've been reading this thread for a while and now I've gotten to the point where I really do need to ask some things ^_^

After the release of the specific M4 NPAS package there weren't to many days one had to place an order before the shops over here went out of stock.
Do anyone of you where I can locate a store anywhere in the world that has the M4 NPAS package in stock?

Since the only difference between the SCAR and M4 package is the #39 rod I was thinking of buying the more readily available SCAR kit instead.
After reading m102404's review post in this thread; did the tests on the M4 with the nozzle on the standard guide rod work out well? Did the difference on the threading matter?

All in all, would you guys recommend just putting the NPAS nozzle on the standard rod? :)

many thanks in advance.

OOS anywhere and I've asked RA-TECH, they will have more in about 2-3 weeks.

Welcome to ASC.

From what I understood, RATech's whole supply of NPAS kits got snatched up almost immediately. One of the guys on here ordered some about two weeks ago and just got an update that they're still 2-3 weeks out in production. So...you're not alone!

The SCAR NPAS will work with M4...if you have the matching chamber. The "SCAR" nozzle is a different shape from the "old" stainless steel M4 nozzle. I posted some pics where you can see the ridge on the "new" nozzles.

So you need the chamber that will allow it to seat all the way forward. If you get the M4 CO2 Upgrade Nozzle (eventhough I think the slim "old" stainless steel nozzles are designed for CO2)...I think that it comes with the brass chamber.

The chamber is a straight swap in for the existing one.

The NPAS I have in my M4 right now came from a SCAR NPAS kit. Everything is the same between the M4 and the SCAR except for rod length and threading portion.

I don't think that not having as much threading on the rod will negatively affect things...you'll just have to move the adjustment plate out further to reduce the FPS.

The threading on the rod is M4 I think...so you could thread the rod a bit more if you really needed to.

So...in short...yes, I believe that you can use the SCAR NPAS nozzle in your M4. No, I don't believe that you'll encounter any issues with the stock M4 rod not being threaded as much.

I do not believe that the extended length of the rod is super critical...but I do think that the collapsed length of the nozzle/piston/spacer is. Too long and you'll crush your nozzle...too short and it won't seal nicely. If you swap chambers...the clearance might change a bit.

I swapped the hard plastic spacer on mine to a bit of medium-hard rubber. The length is just a hair longer than the plastic spacer. I'm hoping that it'll take up any shock from jams (and if I've not got the length of the assembly right :)) and help preserve the integrity of the nozzle. Works fine, I've shot more than a dozen mags through that setup so far.

Best of luck,

Tys

oh,
now that is the mother of an answer and it covered all my Q's.

Just for clarification;
I do have the WE M4 AWSS Co2 version so the NPAS-nozzle will fit, but after not even 500 shots my WE co2 nozzle got smashed, not totally unlike your pictures, altho mine snapped straight off where yours just is bent. This without a hickup or even a notice that things werent great :/

So, the hunt is basically for a new nozzle, and the one I had was way to hot for the sites over here so i was thinking of going NPAS while im at it :)
Ofcourse i could do the whole put-a-7mm-bushing-inside-the-#44 dance or try doing a custom bushing ... but ... well ... i just like the NPAS :)

So, again. Thanks for some very good answers regarding but world wide outofstock-age and also the tech tips. Ill post some pics and report on progress as soon as i get my spares :)

My "smushed" nozzle worked great right up until it didn't. In places, it's not too far from being snapped off.

I've made my own bushings & float valves. They work. But they can't be easily fine tuned. You basically are taking a rough conservative shot in the dark, then disassembling it and guessing at how much to take off. With multiple retries, it can be set...but it's a pain in the ass.

Good luck with your search!

Tys

My M4 won't fire on full auto anymore. It shoots great in semi but on full it will either just slide the bolt forward or vent out the gas. Will this be the same as the SCAR issue posted before? I don't see anything broken so any ideas will be helpful.



Also, Prime makes an ambi mag release for the PTW and WA, do any of you have any idea if it would work in the WE? I don't see why it wouldn't.
EDIT: So I took my mag release off my PTW to see if it will work in my WE and it does so there you go. For those other lefties out there, here's an option. Now we need an ambi selector.

If you pop out your bolt on your M4...where is the white plastic chunk that holds the piston centered? Is it all the way at the back...or has it slipped forward.

If it's slipped forward...the hammer might be clipping it as it drops forward. If it slips forward more you'll loose semi as well.

If that's the case, push it back and things should work as normal...if it doesn't then there is something else wrong.

Are you talking about the stabilizer? It's all the way back:(

how about we make a Replacement parts list for both m4's and SCAR's, to make it easier on everyone, and, were to buy those parts.

so far for the SCAR seems like the following are the problems:
- Firing Pin > REPLACEMENT PMC Reinforced Firing Pin (were to buy one?)
- Part # 66 http://www.ipscgm.com/index.php?main...oducts_id=1605
- rod housing http://www.ipscgm.com/index.php?main...oducts_id=1604
- back plate/hinge plate (is there a reinforced version?)
- firing pin? were to buy one?

also, seems like a few select ppl have their triggers snapped off...anyone know of after market cnc triggers or trigger replacements (for the scar)?

so far, seems liek the SCAR is more reliable than the m4 series gbb's

Okay wtf.
I seem to shoot the SCAR today and wtf. WTF.. WTF? WTF?!
Everything I checked was not broken part 66. So what the heck seems to be the problem?
Valve striker plate thing is fine, everything else is fine, it shoots once in auto and stops.
Semi works excellent like always. I switch it to full auto and shoots once and done. BUT it's still cocked.. :S HUHHH?!

To my understanding, if part #66 is broken/worn, it will simply not trip the return of the valve knocker....which would cause the mag to vent it's gas.

It would do that both on semi and full auto.

Lanny, it sounds like the plate that holds the hammer back isn't catching.

Tys

WE is the problem.

I disagree...my current SCAR set-ups have not failed me yet! No broken parts, no leaks, no cracks...NO NOTHING!
If you plan on using/abusing the WE SCAR in it's stock form then you can expect things to break and fast! If guys would take some time, do some research and order up the necessary aftermarket upgrades then breakdowns would be few & far between!

I don't mind differing opinions posted to this thread....I welcome them in fact. This isn't meant to be a WETTI/AWSS love-in fest.

BUT...please do post without elaborating at least a bit on your statement(s).

More on Lanny's SCAR....he has the clear lower version (painted black).

The one immediate thing I noticed was how "loose/wobbly" the lower seemed to be when compared to the reinforced fiber plastic of the "real" ones. Not necessarily a lot of up/down movement, but rather side/side and tilt play at the font pin.

The internals were (at a glance) the same...and seem to be secure.

(PURE SPECULATION)....maybe the molds of the clear lowers is off a bit.

Found the problem. It's the rear spring that was loose as hell and moved from side to side. The long arm of it didn't connect to the trigger which made the trigger no use for auto. Looks like it's working so far.. need to find a washer or spacer to prevent the spring from going side to side from constant burst.
I fixed the problem with the looseness. I made my own gasket.
I don't think it was the body though..

Glad to hear you got it going again Lanny.

I'll take a look at my stuff and see if there's side to side play with the spring as you describe. Hasn't been an issue yet...and they've got 1000's of rounds down them so far.

On another note...Todd (WarChild7, owner of The War Store) posted THIS. A lot of the NYAL guys have been breaking/wearing out their knocker reset/delay/whatever unit...it's part #66.

As a fix for this part, Todd's group has been making runs of Part #66 in CNC Tool Steel (I think it's called Uber Part #66 on his site). I have three of them so far...one for a SCAR, one for my M4 and one spare for whatever comes along later.

They are extremely nicely made pieces. Very uniform (although you'd kind of expect that with CNC...it shows that they've got their setup right and the parts are coming out on spec).

I can manually mill steel...but I'd really not want to make this piece...at the price he's selling it for, it's a great value.

Tys

I still haven't ben able to find a valve knocker :(
Evike sells the assembly, but claims that it is for M4 only and not for the SCAR
My nozzle is probably also on the way out
tys what site did you get your replacement SCAR nozzle from?

Depending on the piece...it might be just as easy to cut/file one out of a scrap of steel. IIRC, it's not that fancy a piece...especially if you have the original piece to copy.

I haven't mic'd the specs for comparison...but they looked pretty similar between the scar and the M4 to me.

The RATech NPAS nozzles were from RATech. I know for a fact that the SCAR nozzle works in the M4 if you have the right chamber....cause that's how I've got mine setup right now.

The M4 rifle came with 2 stock "old M4" stainless steel nozzles/pistons (the guy didn't specify, I didn't ask)....don't know if they always come like that, but that's how I got it. I bought a "new M4" version, which is like the scar's from airsoft global (fast shipping). A buddy of mine got one for me from a place in BC (he didn't say, I didn't ask).

Best of luck getting yours fixed up...don't know how you mangle things so quickly.

Tys

cause when im not doing anything i pump thousands of rounds into a pumpkin in my back yard O.o
hey my TM hicapa Xtreme has fired probably twice the shots of the WE and not a hiccup from it, so dont blame me lol

Where can you get clear lower WE SCARs?
Just curious as I had n ot known them to exist.
Thanks

It should be noted, that M4 triggers ARE NOT THE SAME as SCAR triggers.

I've had dozens of emails from all over the world telling me EVIKE is selling replacement SCAR triggers. They're not - they have M4 triggers which are shorter.

TSC also makes aftermarket AWSS M4 triggers, but the quality is crap, and they do not fit the SCAR - they're too short.

Here's a comparison of an OEM M4 trigger, and an OEM SCAR trigger, for those who don't believe me (there seems to be a lot of you, LOL):

http://6mm-mag.com/wp-content/upload...re-M4-SCAR.png

Sorry, the SCAR trigger in the pic is broken - it's what spawned me into making my own CNC'd steel triggers in the first place.

EVIKE is adamant that their M4 OEM trigger will fit the SCAR, and yes, it will mechanically function, but it sits way too high in the trigger guard. You end up using only the lower 30% of the trigger.

I'm putting an article on 6mm-mag.com shortly, but I love you guys the most.

Can anyone get into aggma's forum? There's some new news about a different hopup system for the WETTI....it flakes out when I try to get in.

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/9420
http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/9420

http://www.aggma.com/portal/images/s...r_DSC00215.jpg
http://www.aggma.com/portal/images/s...r_DSC00214.jpg

" A NEW HOPUP SYSTEM FOR WE AWSS BY WETTI

The HopUp system on the WE/WETTI AWSS guns have been criticised for a long time. People have reported all kinds of errors and strange malfunctions. Some suggestions have been to adopt the old AEG system instead of the WE system. The thing is that it simply would not work on the AWSS system.

However, WETTI has as usual listened to the users and customers and the development of a new HopUp system is under testing. The new system is more or less exactly what people have asked for. The system consists of a modified WE AWSS HopUp chamber that houses any regular AEG HopUp bucking together with any regular AEG inner barrel.

This system is a fantastic innovation that gives people the freedom of choice if buckings and inner barrels. The market for different Hopup buckings and inner barrels is very well developed. Another benefit of this system is that it is very easy to work with and can also be very cheap.

Once again WETTI has listened and delivered!! "

I love every word on that... thats great news, not that Ive had any hopup isses at all, but still nice thing to hear

Sweet...wish there was a better pic of the adjustment system.

It looks the same as the current AWSS adjuster.

It's to the right of the large brass cylinder in the photo above.

I can't remember...does the stock one have that brass square bump thing next to it?

I think I might have a pic posted earlier in this thread..

Any idea how soon this will be out ? I was just about to try the Chrome 363.

So how are people finding the CO2 mags? Has anyone used them in cold weather?

This is something I've been dying to hear about too, especially given our climate.

some more interesting news, someone released an aftermarket hop unit:
http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/9674

Don't get it...I thought those black rings (vs. the lime green "tickler" rubber rings) were out for a while now...and there's just a rubber shim under the ball bearing...otherwise it looks just like the hopups that I've got on my rifles now.

On another note....both Brian and I were shooting the M4 WETTI's last night at CQB and we were simply drilling guys. Mine's cut down to CQBR length and his is stock. I was shooting MB .28's through mine...don't know what Brian was using.

I haven't set my hopup in ages...but it's still shooting nice since the last time I touched it.

I can definitely see how putting something a bit more maleable (squidgy) under the ball bearing would get the rubber to conform to the bb better. That makes sense.

For this do you need the chorme:rolleyes: barrel?

[QUOTE=m102404;1113676
On another note....both Brian and I were shooting the M4 WETTI's last night at CQB and we were simply drilling guys. Mine's cut down to CQBR length and his is stock. I was shooting MB .28's through mine...don't know what Brian was using.

.[/QUOTE]

I was running .20 .. ran semi only .. but every time I pulled I hit .. I have to say my AS enjoyment had increased by a factor of 10 since I got this thing..

I have NEVER touched my hop-up from day 1 ... easily 3000 rounds through it to date.

Brian's and my own rifle are stock brass barrels and lime green hopup rubbers with just the ball bearing for a nub. The next time I take mine down I'll try something else for a nub. I'm certainly pleased with indoor CQB/big warehouse accuracy so far. I have not fielded mine outdoors (season sort of wrapped up by the time I got the chance to).

...so I'm not convinced that for this type of shooting you need a chrome lined barrel (wouldn't hurt though...:))

I do believe that I read something about the newer black hopup rubbers not fitting well with the "old" brass barrels but working well with the chromed ones.

In all honesty, the hopup design is so simple that it can be easily tweaked to work as long as the spec dimensions aren't wildly different.

Had similar results my last two times out. I was using TSD .28's with great results on Semi. On Full the results were less than stellar with erratic rounds galore which I mostly fault with cool warehouse temperatures. My first CO2 mag showed up at work but I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to pick it up.

just a note some guys on arnies are reporting that adding a aeg shim behind the bolt catch makes it run flawlessly. just thought this should be added to the summary! :D
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forum...170736&st=6180

Thanks...did it work for yours?

Mine hasn't locked back for a while now, except when I rack it back manually.

Note: I do have it tuned down to 290-330 for indoors

I've disabled the bolt locking tab on all my mags for the time being.

Tys

Hey everyone, just an FYI for you all before I send a press release to the news sites - the Laser-cut Steel Valve Strikers (for SCAR & M4 AWSS, part #62) are up for pre-order in the 6mm Customs Shop.

There are only 100 units available, and pre-orders have already started coming in. If you want one, they probably won't last until the end of the month. Once these are gone - I don't know when I'll be able to get more made.

Just a heads-up 'cause I love all you ASC people the most, and I don't want you to be left without one. They are a must-have to prevent your valve-strikers from wearing down to a nub. I'm not posting a link to the product, because I don't want this message to lead to a "sales outside the ____ section" warning/ban - which it probably will anyways... but you guys should get first dibs.

just had my part 59 break on me... one of the bent-down bits that holds the valve knocker assy. in place. this is manchovies old m4 so its a V1/2 with a high round count. im pretty sure its the original part, so thats not too bad. anyone else had this kind of failure?

Im having problems with my SCAR's NPAS valve, as i fire it, it unscrews itself untill the valve is so far back that there isnt enought gas going backwards to even cycle it anymore, this happens over the course of only 1/2 a mag

From what I had heard...it was just about as easy to make your own out of sheet metal than it was to buy a replacement (although I think the replacements are more commonly available now).

I haven't seen one break yet...so I haven't been motivated to make any out the sheet metal I have on hand.

That's odd...the RATech valves that I've seen so far are pretty stiff to turn and haven't worked loose/out yet. Have you tried a dab of loctite?

I'm actually having a similar problem. Stupid question but I take it loctite is available in most hardware stores?