Two Man Recon team! safe or stupid?
 

Hey I was just wondering if you guys think it would be safe to send say a 2 man recon team to go deep in and find out some stuff and than report back on there positions?
would that be stupid ?

Can they respawn?

yap, but also many a time they dont engage unless its to take out a sniper whos pinning the team down.

It's possible if they know what they are doing, and the commander allow them the apropriate support.

Ideally, 2 man recon teams are attached to a squad that will escord them in and out of the erea. The 2 man team will detach from the squad when near the erea of interest and conduct their recon avoiding contact with the ennemy. They should hold fire unless direcly engaged and remain hidden at all time. After conducting their recon, they should NOT engage or touch anything and return to their main squad to relay informatin.

They should only be used when a whole squad would make too much noise and would be suceptible to compromise the mission. But never send a 2 man team alone outside the wire!

Even a sniper team should insert with a whole squad as escord and should have a QRF team (Quick Reaction Force) at the ready to pull them out of shitty situation.

The hability to respawn and medics should not be a desision factor when deciding how many people are needed for a mission. Unless it's a skirmish.

interesting, Thanks for the input.

we've run a 2 man recon team on and off for years and it works well if you are strictly doing recon and bug out if you get into contact.

We've been rocking the two man scout sniper teams recently and it has had tremendous effect.

I often go in by myself. Lol

They should have a radio, and they shouldn't get shot.

Depends on available manpower and what tasks and tactics are being employed within the battlespace.

In Wolfpack we've used two man teams, but, depending on the mission we would choose the appropriate personnel. If observation is the primary task, then its best to pick your quietest yet most ballsy guys who are good observers and comms guys. If its harassment or interdiction, you choose your fast and aggressive guys.

Keep in mind that a two man team, while having the advantage of flexibility and ease of communications (no squad overhead), it has no depth as a 'force' so if you're looking at a force-on-force engagement, you really should bring a group that outnumbers your opponents. Never fight fair, thats for pussies...

Keep in mind that certain weapon systems and tactics act as force multipliers, such as a sniper rifle in the hands of a skilled marksman, or a crafty ambush. Though it is simple math, and if you can afford to field greater forces than your enemy then you should - but something has to be said for the group that fields less and still accomplishes their objectives. Sun Tzu was all about that.

Yes and no.

This is airsoft. There is no such thing as a "squad weapon" or a 50 cal, or a Mark 3 grenade launcher. A SAW and an M4 are the same thing in airsoft. Perhaps ROF might be a factor, but moreso psychological than real. I feel when you're going up against another airsoft squad, short of having more weapons and manpower, you're pretty much guaranteed an equal footing on weapons (providing they are all functioning). Your actions can help but if you're going up against an enemy of equal capability, you better have your game on, because it will most likely come down to people moreso than superior weaponry.

basics
 

2 guys with a clue can beat 4 that are clueless

4 guys with a clue should take 2 every time

Not to mention that a squad functionning together with the same objective and with a capable squad leader can win againt an overwelming force of noobs and rambos players.

Yes, but its more likely:

2 guys without a clue fighting 4 that are clueless, and

4 guys without a clue fighting 4 that are also clueless, and everyone complaining the other is cheating...

Hahaha!

Also IMO they should be used for longer games..12 or 24 hour milsim..1-2 skrims would be pointless..by the time they get into what they need to do, games over

Hilarious! and so true!

Indeed...

but it does not have to be that way...

players should sort themselves out in to pairs... and as much as you can always play together with the same mate.

In ASC I speak from an airsoft standpoint and draw from my airsoft experience. I try to avoid relating to real steel in airsoft discussions as the capabilities of the weapon systems are so different.

I tend to avoid the games with the mag-winders, so a SAW and an AEG are most definitely two very different creatures on the field.

At our last game two HT scout-sniper teams effectively provided area denial for the entire time they were in the field. At the game before that, the high rate and sustained fire from the SAW gunner on our team tipped the firepower scale in our favour and allowed us to win the battle.

In my experience, squad guns can make a difference in firepower (if there are rules inplace to achieve the goal of different levels of firepower)

Our usual local rules have different ammo limits and abilities depending on your gun/magazines.

For squad guns you can use a drum mag, and carry loose ammo on you to reload whenever you want. (Typically only guns that are used in military applications as squad guns are allowed to be under this designation, and there can be a limit on how many per squad. For instance, an M4 with a box mag is not a squad gun, and you couldn't have an entire squad with M249's.

For everything else, you can only carry one hi-cap, ~6 midcaps or an unlimited number of lo-caps, however you can only reload at designated resupply points. (And no box mags allowed)

These rules make squad guns very useful, because you know the covering fire they provide isn't stopping anytime soon.

done this before personally

just make sure neither of the two don't start telling you that they want to come back because their bored of observing the enemy for hours.

and guys that arent so kill-thirsty or fast on the trigger. It's not their objective.

I guess what I am saying is that a sniper is really more about tactics than equipment. For instance you can ask Sha Do about the time at Deadlands, he played a sniper role and I countersnipered him using one of my guns that happen to have a good tightbore and long distance on it and kept him pinned and neutralized his attempt to deny us passage on the path we were using to transit the field. He had a BA and I had Matilda (my ghetto M16 tightbore).

If you have a sniper, with a low rate of fire and you're allowing him to deny you an area, and you have a squad, then to me, thats a failure of your own squad tactics to use manouver and fire movements to neutralize that player - your squad has the numeric and mobility advantages, so as long as you know where the fire is coming from, that one or two man team is going to be either forced to move when you apply pressure, or they're going to die in place.

Missing the point ?
 

The question was about a 2 man recon team, so perhaps a look at that would be useful.

Scout/Sniper teams fall into this as can any 2 man fireteam.

They can be useful anytime assuming that you have and use radios. Without radio communication they serve no useful purpose because they cannot tell you anything.

Communication is the essential to any recce team.

The should also enter the area ahead of the rest of the team, if they are going to gather intel they need to move quietly and be far enough ahead to report the enemy before they engage the main body of your force.

Remember the job of a recce team is to locate, and report the enemy and their activities. Setting up ambushes, or engaging high value targets is secondary.

A 2 man team should be fine provided the members know what they are doing. Ive been involved with anywhere from 6 man recce teams down to just myself. It all depends on the terrain , players you have on your team and the enemy. You dont want to be running a 6 man recce team if your entire force only consists of 30 players. Good radios and people who know how to use them are the MOST important thing. I have used UHF radios for probably 10 years at this point because I have found that FRS just didnt cut it. My comms would get lost and my info wouldnt get out. I switched to UHF and have enough radios to provide a CO with a radio specifically for recce radio traffic. I have been in games where we started with a 4 man recce team and once getting to a target area broke into 2 2 man groups to have eyes on different trails. In the same game 1 2 man team returned to base while the other stayed in the field , alternating 1 sleeping and 1 observing. 1 man works fine as long as you have timed sitreps with your CO. So you would check in every 30 minutes , giving your location and possibly a grid of a position you were moving too , if you got into trouble you would call in a request for a qrf while you got to a safer location.

A one man recce team is better than two, half the detection issues (consider one stepping on a branch, giving both away)................ is my opinion based upon experience. I prefer just myself, because I've gone that route many more times as recce, sniper, etc. and kept in radio contact with my team, and the times I've had a trusted second along with me, even in a ghillie, I see it as a hassle. Make sure they are still with you, deal with them making a mistake and getting shot at, just the entire having someone else along while I do what I need to do is a distraction. This is just me though, and I've experienced both many times, I'm much more effective by myself than having a second along.

I absolutely agree with you on this one :) I too have found it much easier to get stuff done by myself. Gathering intel on my own and reporting back is much quicker and easier , dont have another person too worry about. Most of the time I have had someone with me they have been smoked due to giving away thier position while I have managed to stay alive and continue reporting back. There are only a few people I actually trust even remotely to even suggest they do recce missions on thier own or with me.

Use the second guy to cover your escape route if your worried about being encircled, else just send one guy.

2 man can move as silently as 1 if both know how to.

Like in shorts bounds with times to stop to listen and observe. IMO, it's better than 1 guy, because if you get in contact, 2 is much better than one to get away with continuous fire on the ennemy.

If a single guy get smoked. Dead man don't talk. So Command would never know what happenned. And while you move, you can't observe and hear as well as when you are still. With a travel overwatch, you always have an pair of eyes and hears looking out for baddys.

As a CO, I'd never rely on one man rambo team for nothing but perimeter defence with redondancys.

I think it all comes down to leadership in the game. For example at Rawdon on the green team I felt there were no clear goal and tactics used other than for whatever group just happend to be together at a respawn. In this situation I don't think a two man team would have had any effect on the outcome of the game. However if your team has clear goals, and are aware of each others efforts and are supporting each others movments and attacks, then a two man recce team most certainly has its place.

again radio is everything. I was recce with real steel and we worked in three man teams... if we ever fired our guns we failed. Our whole job was communication. Find the enemy, report the enemy, and in case of attack return, brief the platoon or company, and lead them back in for the attack.

But this is airsoft... much less organized and controlled. but yes it could work... but there wepons are only for defense and to promote a escape.

Me and Coma were a two man team one game and wrecked havoc on the opposing team. We had one flank and slowly moved in, while the rest of our team had the enemy's front and opposite flank.

Basically, i like two man teams, but only if you trust the other person you're with to do the right thing at the right time without being told.

When i was with coma, an enemy approached us. i was worried that Coma would shoot and give away our position (it was my first game playing with him), but sure enough, he let him go by. and it wasn't until then that we killed him.

This was just a lucky example of two teamates who shared a similar thought pattern and knowledge on the type of tactics used.

if you want a two man team, you will have to find a partner like that.

This is why at our games we field in groups that always play together, just four groups of four but it works. Two teams that are able to operate is better than one against a bunch of wannabees and new blood

Two man recon has worked for me for a while now

I mean you do have to be conscious of your role and to not be stupid. But two men can go where 4 cannnot

And 2 mens need 4 mens so they come back.

it is pretty sweet when u have ninjas on your team that never die. when they get behind enemy lines it's great

Logically 2 men need more. I am not advocating a 2 man combat team, I just prefer to operate with a good teammate observing and reporting. I know when to run (believe me, they beat that into you)

I recently ran a 5-8 man recon team to flank and attack the opposing respawn, worked well until we were seen by a guy going into the woods to take a piss who was lit up by the six guns pointed at him, our sniper ran away and piss boy called us out when he respawned, all but one of us died, but we all got at least 3 kills, and the last guy living got about 10 knife kills on the way back to our respawn

Chuck Norris must've been playing...

Any team should be DET's of Four. 16 players on a side, 4 DETs.

if you go 2 in, and one's down, than last man is fuxorzed.

Remind me of 1 is none, 2 is one.
That is so true.

Nah, they just thought he was on their team, even when he ran right past a guy, looked at him and started taking to him thinking that they were on the same team, realized that he was on the other team, knife killed him, the ran off to get three more knife kills 20' away from another unsuspecting enemy, one of the other guys said after the game that he had seen the flood of dead running back to respawn

That's not a recon, that's a flanking assault

A recon is where you go and RECON something, typically without engaging
If your objective is to attack something, chances are your in an assault team lol

Anyway I find the 2 man recon team is most effective. Much less noise than 3 people, significantly more awareness than one guy, and if they know what they're doing they can back off from any single sided engagement safely by using fire movement.

Yeah, and we reconed where in the woods they went to take a piss, one guy opened fire though:rolleyes:

4 > 2.

Recon
 

I as a unit commander have the recon team request permission to engage high prfile targets and enemy unit command. If not they confirm positions and movements, and if possible understand the enemies next course of action so my deathtechs can move to the required pressure points, or assault their lines during their line change.

LOL.


Roll 4 man fireteams..

Speaking from my experience only

I have worked alone, and a spotter, both have advantages and both have dissadvantages, which have been covered.

I personally prefer the 2 man recon/sniping team simply because both of you cover each other off, one watches the 12oclock and the other 6 oclock, one eats, the other observes, one takes a piss, the other observes their acrs of fire, etc. As an airsoft sniper team, both of you have to know each other well, at least well enough to know each other's weaknesses and help each other out. Once both of you work well together and within your squad, you can literally dominate the situation, if you do it right, theres alot of examples of this. My spotter and I work extremely well together, I dont have to look back to see if he is doing his job, and vise versa, or tell him what to do. Sometimes having a 3 man team is beneficial, if the operation dictates that requirement. It comes down to the operation and the commanders intent, and ultimatley what he wants to achieve in the end.

a recon/sniper team are best employed during a milsim event, more so during those 24hr events, these events offer plenty of time for the sniper team to conduct its operations, and its obviously the situation to employ such teams.

As for sending your 2 man recon team behind enemy lines, thats what recon is about, they are your teams eyes and ears, you can operate without intel, but not as effective with the intel on the enemy your fighting. Make sure your recon team are above average in terms of tactics, concealment, etc. The recon team undetected behind enemy lines is just as good as eliminating members of the opposing force. However once detected, they are useless, and just compromised the entire team.

Thats my 2cent

When I was a Recce Det Cmdr. I was involved in many patrols where we would Recce an enemy objective for a Fighting Patrol (Raid/Ambush). We would go in prior 12 to 24 hours, Recce the objective to set up an Objective RV, Support Base, Line Of Departure (Assault start point), cut off teams (Security Teams) and release point (Security Teams). The Patrol would arrive and we would place them in the previous recce area and the attack would commence. Lots of fun, lots of stealth. Patrolling is the best trg asset for a soldier to use most of his skills. I couldn't see this happening in a 24 hour MILSIM.
EYE AND EARS OF UNIT MEANING NO SQUIRMISHING
Q

See, if you send a 'skilled' and 'experienced' two man recon team, I think thats alright. But, say if both are hit out, you may need to sacrifice other team members to go save that recon squad. The win, you get a tactical edge with two body's. The loss, could sacrifice other team members to revive the recon team.

no recovery
 

Your recon team gets taken out you abandon them, they should not be so close to you that you can get to them. Their job is recon not combat if they know they are out of the game for however long once they get hit they will be way more sneaky.

In fact they should be enough on the ball to tell you they may be compromised and to abandon them. You should never have any doubt about where and what a recon team is doing. If you do they are not doing their job.

Truer words never spoken; in a scenario with a mission if you go running off to rescue a couple jackasses who got themselves spotted and then shot is a great way for the opposition to tie the teams in knots till the clock runs out.

Everyone loves that "no one gets left behind" feeling but if you can't keep your eyes on the prize then you're done. You might as well not even show up.

My personal preferance, but we have a guy thats total ninja, I've seen him take down an 4 man enemy patrol using a spring pistol, then vannish back into the brush.

the mission always comes first, IF you wanted to throw real steel stuff in during training they hammer that into our heads My mission, My equipment, My men, My self in that order. im part of a reserve recce unit and it doesnt even cross our minds if we mess up dont expect a rescue.

SnipersVenom, theres things like QRF, CAS, etc people don't get left out to die. You may be on your own for a bit untill help arrives though. You guys may be left out on your own on a weekend ex, etc but on tour theres far more assets available.

Yep in an airsoft game having the whole unit break off from their task to rescue folks every few minutes isn't the way to win friends and influence people.

In the real world they've got the straphangers and the like to bail folks out of a jam.

we used them on sunday, i was part of the recon team.
we should have had a walkie to talk to our general to relay enemy movement, we won the battle but.. not without a hard fight, in my opinion because couldn't tell our troops where to deploy/redeploy to meet the enemy attack head on.

So you guys weren't much of a Recce Det than.. more just a couple guys ahead of everyone just watching stuff an laying low. Without comms Recce is useless as the whole point is to relay what you see back to your HQ.

You raise a good point Mr S; what to do when comms are out.

You can send a runner to HQ with the report.

You can blow a whistle, 3 tweets could mean the enemy is massing to attack. Of course you have to bug out after that sort of very overt message.

You should have a radio of course, but what if someone on the team has left their VOX on? Then you shift up or down to the alternate frequency.

You can lay a long piece of wire or paracord to HQ and yank it when it's time to give the signal.

Three blasts of a whistle is generally considered distress/emergency.

I guess the issue becomes what are we working with in these tips, game tactics or real world situations. In game I wouldn't worry too much about adapting a distress call as a signal. One or two blasts can be missed.

For anyone who is worried about this sort of cirmcumstance "crying wolf" you could keep blowing till things get too hot and then you bug out.

This set up really only works for an organized event/milsim as that would be the only workable game to make a Recce worth it as a lot of other short games/scrims are to quick to make it worthwhile.

If you have a 4 man det and you send 1 pers as a runner you just lost 25% of your firepower incase things go bad. An now you have a liability as his movement could alert the enemy and let them know that theres dudes in the area. And if he's pretty much SOL if he gets caught. He "dies" and your message ain't passed.

If you have an organized game with lots of guys with radios this would work.

CP - A radio for each "Platoon" freq/ch or how ever your organized. And another radio set for the Recce Freq/Ch. And have 1-2 Alt freq/ch.

Recce Det would have 1-2 Radios

The Recce and "Platoons" would also have each other's freq/ch if they need to talk directly to each other, ie link ups, etc


If no radios and there is time for the Recce to move up, do their thing and move back.. well have the Recce do just that move ahead, record everything they see and go back to their lines and pass on the info.

I'm not even talking about 'real world situations' both Claybank 2010: Mason Relic II and Op: Unfinished Business are using the three blasts as the emergency signal. So, it's certainly used in larger games. If you train and use three blasts in small games, odds are that's what you're going to use in the moment in a large game... and depending on the rules, you may have just stopped the game or have a bunch of admin converging on your position.

Oborous

Well if there's one that a Recce element has to be is flexible. If you have to change one signal, or a radio freq because the admins have reserved it you better be ablle to adapt otherwise you'll sitting around carping about how you've always done it one way and the next minute you're being overrun.

And a Mr S above has noted this element has limited use in a normal game. The situation is so fluid, so tied to a small area and you have such a short period of time to act in that your recce teams will have limited to no use.

It's best to work a recce element with a second tasking, snipers, blocking force or some other task also besides sneak and peek. You really need a scenario that's almost tailored to thoughfull play vs the typical recce by death of a short skirmish.