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Rules for Milsim Support Gunners?
Were trying to put rules in place about support gunners Involving compensation for recoil, ammo count, bulk, maneuverability, etc etc. Do any milsim players have any pointer, rules or ideas to help out? Obviously a real steel M249 is more than difficult to fire on full auto, so were thinking about rules like having to be prone, oe supporting on a bipod, however that can be a pain in the ass for 3 round bursts and what have you. Essentialy we dont want some one firing off 1000 rds, without having to change mags and keep a steady clean trajectory while running full tilt at us. (just like hicap games)
Also if you have fired an M249, or any LMG, please post your experience, it does help. |
Limit ammo counts to 200 rounds/boxmag
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well duh. plus it can be difficult with auto winding box mags. but thanks for the input.
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No autowinding mags would put a significant dampener on someone's ability to hold the trigger down. :)
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i like that! any manual winding beta mags out there?
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http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper...ing%20Magazine I had a manual boxmag by First Factory, before I sold my G36. No complaints, besides the maraca music, though padding the inside helps a lot. Edit: My shopping-fu is awesomest. http://www.uncompany.com/pageproduct...sp?prodid=2430 |
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As for realism, like Kokanee said, limit mag loads to 200. Let 'em carry a couple load's worth, and put a load of 200 on a couple others in the section. Make barrel changes at the proper intervals a requirement. Pretty simple. |
FWIW, Manitoba is kinda considered to be "Milsim Central" and our LMG rules are rather lax for low/realcap restricted games. Machine gunners are the only ones allowed to carry hicaps and box mags as well as loose ammo, although if they're using hicaps they may only carry one so it can't be loaned to a rifle user.
Now that I think about it, we probably haven't had much of a problem with LMGs simply because we didn't have a lot of them around. This season there will be a LOT though, seems every man and his dog wants one now. Off the top of my head I know of over a half dozen, mostly CAs with at least one STAR. We'll probably introduce some new rules here and there but for the most part we like to assume that the player is going to play responsibly with their equipment. I'm going to disagree with restricting box mags to 200 rounds though. It's generally accepted that it takes at least two BBs to accomplish the same task as one real bullet, and you usually can't get all of the BBs in a box mag to enter the feeding mechanism when it gets really low. If you're intent on restricting machine gunners I would recommend a load of 500 rounds in a box mag, otherwise most people with CA or TOP M249s will just opt for multiple under-filled 300 round hicaps since they're a lot easier to carry and swap out. |
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Screw ammo restrictions on squad gunners. The size and weight of their weapon is enough of a setback. Just make them fire in bursts. It all depends on what you consider milsim to be. Do you want to simulate the loadout? or the combat experience? Because there is nothing real about a SAW gunner who has to use a full box mag to kill a guy hiding behind a bush. |
if u want to do SAW rules one rule we use out here is that depending on the team is that theres X-number of saws per 10 players. and for ammo i cant remember but i think it was like 800rds with the gunner plus another 1000 as back-up but carried on another player. the ammo limits I'm not 100% sure on but I'm sure I'm not far off.
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thnx for the help!
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1) The ammo restriction for a SAW depends on the ammo restrictions for the rest of the players. If you're running realcaps for everyone, same goes for the SAW.
2) Individual players may carry a 'belt' of ammo for the saw, ranging between one to two hundred rounds for a realcap event, adjusted accordingly for non-realcap events. Can be carried in bags or 35mm film canisters. These are probably the only restrictions you'll need, and I'll explain why: 1) Reloading a 249 with a box mag or highcaps is going to take JUST about as long as if you were to reload a real one. You'll have to be down for a reasonable amount of time while you open the mag, fill it, and close it back up. 2) An individual carrying a 249 or M60 will suffer the same accuracy problems when standing and firing as those who are operating the real thing. Those who are more capable of accurately firing the SAW while standing due to physical stature should not be penalized and made to lay flat. 3) While limiting the ammo to 200 / boxmag, it makes a saw almost useless as a squad support weapon if the individual only has 1-3 box mags. 600 rounds can be topped by any SINGLE M16 gunner carrying 20 mags. Allowing other individuals to carry 'extra ammo' is accurate and it makes the weapon more useful. ALSO encourages them to feed the gun in order to keep their asses safe. |
The reason we are trying to come up with the rules here is that in the past hicap guns were all used as machine guns. It would be rather hypocritical of me to make up rules if i did not own a machine gun or was not in a place where i could make up rules. I own a m60 that weighs almost twice or more then any of the guns that come to our field. When picking the m60 i choose the model i got because of its low ammo capacity and that I have to pull the cocking handle every 30 rounds. The real m60 suffers from mad jams all the time which is why I felt this to be more of a challenge. My problem stems from people who don't have support weapons and want to slam a box mag on a small g36 or a mp5 etc. Those aren't support weapons and should never be deemed as such. I noticed that (I think it was atreyu's game) where he had a rule the gunner must be in the prone or supported by something. I liked this because it adds some teamwork to the mix. Your forcing the guy who has the best cover fire to get down and shoot it and not just rambo there way through a fire fight. I can stand and walk around with my m60 all day long and use it as an assault rifle but I don't because that is stupid.
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I think you have to keep in mind when I say SAW, I mean an M60 or M249. Under no circumstances is an MP5 a support weapon. A full length G36 might count, but that's stretching it at times. High caps on an assault rifle do not a SAW make.
I think your problem is simply rectified by playing with real capacity ammo rules. That should pretty much get rid of the box mag on the MP5. What it sounds like to me is you're beginning to experience the division of milsim and skirmish gaming now that your local community is big enough. Some of you are going to want to play with a high degree of realism. The others are simply going to want to shoot things. There is no real solution for this problem other than specific games designed for the specific interest. Try holding a 'realcap' game and see what kind of attendance you get. You might find it much less than your average game, but you'll certainly get the kinds of people you want, and won't suffer from MP5 Boxmag-itis. |
One of the best rule for support weapons I'v used in my games is "no burst longer than 2-3 secs".
Both fore realism and safety reasons. I'm not into penalising people with weight or firing position rules. Since the gun itself is hard to manuver and use. We used the "1 box mag" rule + loose ammo allowed for reloads. Most reloads of mags where only allowed in ammo dumps and bases, not on the field. The exception was only for support gunner, wich could reload the boxmags with loose ammo, to simulate changing boxmags. |
well i have the same problem kg, and i did much like meat did. we have one m60 and we have one ak turned rpk. it was origionally an ak, but he has taken the time to make it look like an rpk without actually buying the kit. i dont know how i feel about it, but as long as he only burst fires, ill let it slide. the m60 i havent decided what im going to do about it. on one hand, he spent the money he should reap the rewards, on the other hand, other members dont want a bb hose out there, so again, if complies with the burst fire (no linger than 3-5 seconds) i wont worry about it. in the event that i do have complications i will limit their ammo capacity as we have a locap rule for all riflemen/snipers.
we also are a recreational club with alot of members who just want to shoot people and dont want alot of restricions on how they can play. so i have to keep that in mind, however if i let everyone do what they want, im going to have the same problem as no one will have any fun when everyone else is being cheap with hicaps and hose cannons. but i find as a GO, there are alot of grey areas that people exploit, so you often have to make a decision one way or another. |
Ill just pull a section of a previous post of mine. Its focused on milsim, but it applies to this discussion of ammo rules. Dont worry guys, I know some of you shit bricks when I said this last time, but Im not bashing milsim, just pointing out a common view of ammo rules. Keeping in mind, to those who are likely to start bitching about what Im saying, just think the below is talking about 249/m60 gunners only and not all players, you so can all relax now...Im typing this as the wife is bugging me to clean up the 2 boxes of lowcaps thats all over the floor.
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We have all seen it. Some guy runs and finds cover behind a shitty bunch of shrubs...clearly visible, you send a few BBs his way...only to have them stopped by twigs or leaves. When in real life, a single shot would tear though the tiny bush and leave your opposition as dead as Anna Nicole smith. If a SAW gunner cant hit a guy at 20 years behind a bush, then I totally see reason enough to allow for a saw gunner to carry more ammo in the mag to represent the firepower that a SAW gunner actually wields. As Gyphon said, such a small amount of ammo is the saw can impair its function. Its true that no one(well, almost no one) is going to like a SAW gunner belting out 2,000 long streams of ammo, but Im liking FOX_11s burst suggestion. Its nothing that can be officially regulated, but not much in airsoft can. Let the saw gunner carry as much as they want. Shoot in bursts and they can reload or swamp out a new box when they feel it suites. It should depend on the feel of the game. Simply having a second person to carry the extra ammo or box, and requiring 2 people to reload is a penalty enough. Finding a medic in a game is hard as hell, as is your reload guy. Forcing two players to stick tougher can help reduce the "super hose" factor. When you get written in stone rules, you really put yourself in a small box. |
This discussion reminds me of why I wish my gun discharged 0.30g at at 330fps.
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My problem doesn't really come with ammo limits to the gun. 500-1000 rounds is ok with me. My problem stems from guns that aren't meant to have a box mag on them having them. If someone spends the time to convert a gun into a real world support gun then im all for it. Its when people slap a boxmag, cmag etc onto a gun and call it a support weapon. So in order to allow the abominations we were trying to come up with rules to level the field. With a lrb in my m60 i can reach out to around 250feet no problem. Which gives my m60 an advantage as a machine gun. My gun doesn't have ridiculous rof but it could with an easy switch of a spring and o-ring. Were thinking at just banning cmags etc and say if you want a support weapon drop the bills to get one. Then we don't really have to restrict them at all.
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In my games, Support weapons have to physicly look like one. No G36 with hicaps.
The only eception whas for those using drum mags. (Mud have an AK with a camel gonad on it (drum mag) and it's fine with me since he is limited by the reloading rules anyway. Not to mention that Mud is one hell of a nice guy haha). That drumag don't make them support weapons, since they can't reload them on the field except at ammo dump and bases. |
Airsoft Irene 4 Strikers
this was posted on ASC a little while ago by Hillslam when he was @ Operation Irene in the States, he uses a M249. In the video he reloads his boxmag and takes him quite awhile. just thought it could help. |
He is also using it on a gun that it was designed for.
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however, you don't want to force a guy to get down in the mud every time he goes to fire his M249.
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I think the problem of this thread stems from the title and confusing wording. the whole problem is amazing wants to add a box mag to his gun to call it a support gun. We are on the move to making our fields locap only. As a compromise i decided to come up with a rule so that guns with a box mag could be considered a support gun. However the field official knight and I are talking and instead of placing hard to enforce rules on machine guns. We are likely going to ban box mags and say if you want a support gun fork out the cash.
EDIT> I say this should be clarified because I know asc's view on c mags etc |
as a previous Cmag lover, they have their issues. They are loud and make the gun very awkward.
If someone is set on making a rifle into a support gun, then sure, a Cmag, bipod, burst firing and a simulated reload(could be a 90 second timeout per x number of rounds fired off). If people are really gonna piss and moan about it, then carry an over the shoulder bag with a few pounds...it will add some weight and will swing around making things more difficult. If people are gonna give the guy a hard time because hes doing his best to make everyone happy while still being a support gunner, then they should grow a pair and stop bitching. As much as in a perfect world, not even can drop $1,500 or more on an actual M249 or M60...Not to say that everyone should go out and buy a Cmag, but people gotta remember that its a game and there should be some give both ways. |
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IMO... you should worry less about restricting saws, and more about restricting everyone else. Any gun with a hicap is basically a SAW, which makes owning a SAW pointless. instead of telling a saw what it can and cant do, restrict everyone else. NO hicaps, only low and real caps. that way, a SAW standard load out gives it the natural advantage it should have.
Yah no one likes a SAW, youre not supposed to! theyre supposed to be able to lay down tonnes of fire, its their role on the field. Most SAW gunners dont play the role right anyways, in that the SAW isnt supposed to get kills. its the gunners job to shoot at bushes, sandbags and bunkers, keeping the heads behind those objects down. while your assault team moves in to take the glory. As for the cost issue.. those who save the pennies for a 249 are the ones who get pissed off at those who abuse CMags and such. " I just dropped 2 grand on a gun, this punk spend 700$... and he's subject to the same rulings as me? " Doesnt seem fair, nor does it encourage people to play milsim in the least. one rule I heard though, I really liked. Restricting 1 MG to a squad of 7 or 10. THATS how you balance it the most, IMO. no more armies of machine guns. |
I Agree with Zekk05
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I don't really care if someone uses a Cmag in his AR or whatever gun he has. As long as he uses only 100 bbs in the mag and can not reload it on the field.
Using a M60, M249 or M240, he'll get to load up with 200 rds in the gun and have a reload of 4 times. Each reload will again be 200 rds which will give him a total loadout of 1000rds. No sharing of his loadout to other players except if it's another M60,M249 or M240 and as long as the total does not exceed 1000 rds. Any other type of light MG (RPK, G36, G3s) will follow real steel mags capasity and will not be allowed to reload in the field. That is, you can carry as much mags as you want but no reloading the mags in the field when it's out. We are also going to be playing only with realcaps loadout soon. We're in the process of giving the players the time needed to equip themselves with additional mags. |
As long as it isn't like the Knob Hill gunshoot...its milsim enough for me.
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well depending on the manufactuer of the LMG you may not be able to run low ammo amounts in the box mags (As Gryphon pointed out) and you may not even be able to run STAMAGs in them (The CA M249 will take a standard mag but the STAR M249 will not) Droc made a good point. it's about replicating the power.
If your going to run a game with ammo limits but allow for a SAW gunner then specific rules for them are in effect. Barrel length, ammo capacity and spare ammo capacity are the key factors I have used in the past. While up until recently having an LMG showing up on the field was rare a person with a Box mag(cmag or any other variety of high capacity mag) on a AEG made them a SAW. Now that cheap and reasonably effect LMGs are being fielded you can now limit specifically the fielding of the AEG with HICAP/BOX mags as SAWs. and just make the rules for the LMGs (CA/Star manufactuers being the most common). |
The point of Mils is to replicate real life conflicts and fire fights. A g36 with a C mag is capable of giving support fire. It has 5.56 stopping power and the ammo capacity of C MAG (beta mag) to lay out that amount of firepower. It CAN be a support weapon and CAN provide fire support, just be cause its main function wasn't intended for support like a SAW or M60 doesn't it make it just. The MG36 is capable of it, and as such a G36 is exactly identical minus the barrel length and integrated bipod. So? Its the same fucking gun! I dont think i need to spend my life savings to buy a huge SAW to just give my team the Essential Fire support we need, i am more than wiling to bend to the rules, but this is starting to get out of hand just because of something like classification. I am at the ver least investing in Drum mags (box mags) and a bipod to at least come into the ball park of support fire power. Im not just using hicaps and calling myself a support gunner i think i am in absolutely no wrong.
Bean, F3 is in trouble, you now own THE support gun and we have nothing, im not spending 800-1200 bucks to follow AAS rules. We need to make the game more like the real thing than more like game based on limitations and rules. |
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i have someone or actually two people in my club who have the same view as you kg. i absolutly hate hicaps and cmag/drum mags fall under that. and so do the majority of our members, so that show we run it. your right about the g36/mg36 thing. why dont you get a k front end then youve essentially got an mg36. as i said before, thats what a member here did with his ak/rpk. i dont know if thats egsactly right but its a comprimise. if you want to be a gunner YOU should be dedicated to do it right. otherwise it just makes you seem like a poser.
but as it stands hearing your side of it, along with beans side, i dont see why you cant comprimise and mod your g36 into an m36 as i mentioned previously, and manage your trigger control. if you can show them you can follow rules with out haveing to be regulated youll both be happy. |
It is K model, im not using a C MAG. And i just spent 220 on a RAS im not spending another 150 making a MG36. We could usr Hicaps, but that totally ruins the experience, thus the CMAG which seems fair, i like them provided rules are in play. All the teams shouldnt have to invest in a LMG just because one player has an unstobblable heavy LMG.
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Why not? Why shouldnt teams have to invest in an LMG? If you want milsim, do it right. not this mickey mouse bullshit. Having a support weapon in your squad gives you a huge advantage, and thus, it shouldnt be something that just anyone can go out and pick up. Replacing a SAW gun with an M4 and box mag ruins the milsim aspect of it all, 100% lame.
We have a rule set in MB, which, when combined with Op Specific rules, operates very smoothly and creates a very milsim-like environment. The only problem Ive ever seen arise from these is the MG36 situation. http://members.shaw.ca/axo/rules.htm Quote:
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I like your rule system but were not Keystone, MILSIM in the Maritimes is just starting to pick up steam, and we just cant buy an LMG. This is a counter measure to beans Super human M60. Anyways, real steel this G36 can be used. It qualifies under all rules, bipod, full auto, 5.56 caliber, limited supply Drum mag, burst and position restrictions, but the fact that it isnt Designed with LMG role in mind (essentially a 100mm barrel difference) it cannot be used, thus drastically turning the advantage.
Regardless, rules are being constructed between members of the three main Atlantic teams, Halifax Rangers, The Resistance and F3 contracting using this input and we will have it all sorted out. Thanks again. |
The keystone rule set isnt used just for KS operations, its our overall ruleset thats used for All Ops and adapted accordingly. (not all our games have vehicles, and thus those that dont, we wouldnt bother with those rules). etc
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oh i know, i mean we cant invest in a LMG.
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I know several people have issues with support guns.
The club I participate in ( www.utahcountyairsoft.org ) has a few rules we use. These rules are "prohibitive" in nature as we dont want every yahoo being a support gunner. When we play ammo limit games only support gunners can be unlimited (we have a no winding mags rule for ammo limit days). Also: only one in 10 can be a support gunner, have to meet regs below etc. In our club we have more than 150 people, only 2 (myself included) are QSS. I used to have an AUG HBAR and an MG36 and currently saving for an M249, other guy has an L86. (I know its long - but its our FAQ so bear with it . . .) Quote:
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