60+ rps build
 

I am going to buy a reinforced gearbox but I want to build a 60+rps at around 370-400fps. If you could list what I could do to get around high 50's to low 60's, that would be wonderful! I really don't want to do the research because I have tried and haven't really gotten a straight forward answer. I have an Apex Full Metal M4 Charlie 12". I would like for this build to be pretty accurate. Money isn't a problem, I would like a professional to tell me what to get exactly.
- Thanks!!

Good luck finding mags that will feed that fast.

High RPS builds are not easy, they require a lot of experience and a LOT of tweaking. If you can't bother to do the research about it yourself, you are clearly not ready to do this build. It's not just putting the parts together, its choosing and trying different parts, using a DSG, calculating air volume, tweaking your tappet plate and nozzle, timing everything, etc.

Also, forget 400 fps at high RPS, its doable, but only the best techs can achieve that. Most high RPS builds shoot under 350 fps for a reason.

Oh, and its unlikely you'll be allowed to use that gun in full auto on the field.

So would 40+fps sound more reasonable for that kind of fps?

30 ish is more reasonable and prety common.
13:1 gears and m110 or 120 and a high torque motor should net you 28-33 bb's/s and a snappy trigger response. Otherwise you'll want lower fps or a DSG, short stroke, bore up, and a heavy ass spring to hit 60rps and 400fps and be reliable and not set shit on fire from heat lol
Edit. You are gonna want a good piston and head and cylinder and head and such as well.

Depends on your barrel length, the longer the barrel, the higher the FPS you can get, but the shorter your barrel is, the easier it is to achieve high RPS, but with lower FPS.

It's fairly easy to reach 25-30 RPS with a strong battery, good motor and gears, etc. But at that point, you are already emptying a 30 rounds magazine in 1 second, its not really practical unless you play in games that allow full midcap or hicap mags, but obviously, hicaps will not work in high RPS builds and you are still emptying a 120 rounds midcap in 4 seconds. High RPS builds kind of defeat themselves.

Okay so the real questions I should ba asking is who can basically build me a 30-40+rps gearbox? I'm really just looking for like good internals to buy so I don't wreck my gun with crappy internals. I'm still looking for the same fps if possible. Just throw out a list of good internals for 30-40rps setup. And I'm haging trouble finding a mosfet. I want one without ab. I just want a basic but good one.
Thanks guys!

You sir have a great point. But I play all CQB so, I'm just looking to really wow some people with high rps. I know they make a mosfet where you can control your rps? But it's too expensive for me.

I'm no gun doc but I build alot of my own 30 ish rps gearboxes lol. Better to learn no?
Edit. If u play CQB why 400fps?

Get a Polarstar Fusion Engine.

Right now, I'm just looking for some good internal parts for a high speed setup. Like gears and what not.
Edit. I was looking for 370-390 originally. That's my feilds fps limit

Airsoftmechanics has a few full guides on this.
As for feeding, look in to modifying your magazine followers, there are guides there about that too. You're gonna have to do research to make this work.

That's not a problem, I can do research. I would go on airsoft mechanics but they have yet to review my registration and approve it for some reason.

No one is going to let you use a high RPS, high FPS build in full auto in CQB, even if its technically under field limits. In CQB, one BB hits skin, you've got a bleeder. 30 BBs hit skin at the same place, you've got a bad wound.

No no. At my feild, we have an inside and an outside. Full auto inside and semi only inside. And I don't think we have a rps limit at my feild ;)

I second this lol. Money isn't an issue get a p*

why would you want 60rps? What would you possibly need it for?

The cycle completion at 30-40rps with the trigger response is already near instantaneous, which is what 99% of people want out of a build like that.

60rps would mean dsg with a frankentorque motor on possibly 14.8v lipos, not may mags will feed well above 50. 370-400 fps would mean a massive spring like a 150-160, good luck trying to assemble that gearbox. Also because of the shortened stroke, you'll be limited to barrels under a certain length, in fact, with dsgs, shorter is generally better, like 247-300mm in that area. Computerized mosfets don't UP your rate of fire, they turn it down so you aren't an asshat.

The way you're going about this is ridiculous. You want something you don't want to do the research for and just want to wow people with? The fact that you're willing to throw your money around for a ***** enlargement?

Most cqb won't allow full auto anyways, so it comes back to a question of trigger response. You want the gun to react quickly so you can uncover, shoot and cover again without sitting there with your pants down waiting for the shot to go off because of the cycle speed.

60rps is excessive, high maintenance, high cost/little return, and all it will do is piss players off that you hose down with it, especially with full auto.

If you had approached me with this kind of request with this level of understanding of what you wanted, I'd turn you away and tell the rest of the techs in my area about you. lol. That kind of carelessness is what can get people hurt and make me look bad for handing a build like this to someone as irresponsible as that.

P* is too expensive to upkeep. Plus I don't have that type of money to buy a p*

lol. a well build DSG is higher maintenance and upkeep than a p*.

You stated in your original post that you don't want to do research and you are looking for some spoon feeding.

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're doing, it doesn't matter how good your parts are or how good my instructions are, you're going to destroy your internals as well as waste your own time and money. Do you really want to waste 150 USD on a gear set alone? Siegeteks are indestructible if installed correctly. If you install them incorrectly, they will strip eventually, and quite quickly if you attempt to do a 60 RPS build and you don't know what you're doing.

Anything above 35 RPS is prone to failure if not assembled and tuned properly. Under that, don't be an idiot and it will probably still work, although very poorly.

I've done a 60 RPS 380 FPS build. It caused severe motor heat, and drew 35A constant. It also did its toll on the motor's commutator and brushes, I had to replace the brushes and turn the commutator on a lathe. I also had to modify the tappet plate, short stroke, modify the tappet plate spring... In order for it to feed, I had to make my own magazine followers, and even then I had to use 0.2g BBs. Anything heavier and the magazine could not load them in time.

If you are simply looking to get a wow factor from people at the field, 30-40 RPS is sufficient, and can be done with much cheaper parts. I build these things all the time, but when I see people trying to copy my builds at local fields, they often sound like shit, strip pinions, strip pistons, don't feed properly etc.

TLDR: Don't try this yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're doing.

Thank you for your consideration but honestly all I asked for was a build. I didn't know you played at my feild and knew the restrictions and what not. I agree that 60 rps is a little high. Thats why I changed my mind to around 30-40 but I'm assuming you didn't read the earlier comments. I'm not the type of person to go around and light up people for the fun of it, But I can understand why you would think that. I know what a computerised mosfet does and I know it doesn't make your rps go up ;) I just thought id get help from some professionals but I guess I'll have to figure out for my self and experiment. Thanks for you help though!

I'm confused...your first post said money isn't an issue...

Yeah. 60 rps is insane now that I think about it. 30-40 will do for me. I wouldn't do this myself. My local field techs are willing to help me install and what not. I just need to buy the peices for them to put together. I do know what I'm doing, just not as much as pro. I have done hours upon hours of research and think that it would be easier for someone to "spoon feed" me.

Don't worry about it. I'm not buying a p*. Simple as that.

What people are telling you is that it's not just about the build. It's not simply a drop in parts project there are metrics and technical skills required that only a handful of people who are good with their hands are capable of which should not be attempted by novices.

Polar stars are $900+ but will last you 3+ years on CO2 and free refills at paintball fields or if you have an air compressor. The upkeep is considerably less than an AEG when it is prone to parts breaking and replacing especially for v2 gearboxes.

It'll cost about the same to build a 40+rps gearbox as buy a p* and way less downtime and upkeep/repair costs from shit breaking every bag of bb's or so lol yer best bet is guy some 13:1 ish gears a lonex piston piston head and a cylender head a mosfet and a motor and good battery. After that grab some gear grease and shims and have at it. You may be able to go without the fet and motor and see how it runs to save some money but may as well build it right. That'll run you 30bbsps ish and cost about 250 bucks in parts give or take. Main factor will be motor and gear selection. Shs for 35 bucks or sigtek for like 100. JG motor for like 40 bucks or a lonex or Tienley for more etc..

So what should I do? Do alot of research?

Thanks! Is there anyway I can get above 30ish rps with another upgrade or not possible for ME?

Simply put not really. Either dual sector gear or lower fps. If you shoot for the 300-400 fps range you can likely push closer to 40 with the same setup just a softer spring and a speed motor not torque.

Okay. What about high torque and speed?

Hectic, I appreciate that you want to be helpful, but this topic exceeds your area of knowledge and you're not supplying useful or correct information.

You do not need a DSG. DSG is dumb, inefficient, and is not any faster than SSG until you start using a 14.8V battery.

If all you want is 30 RPS, any moron can get 30 RPS. Install a MOSFET, throw in a SHS high torque motor, use a 11.1V battery. Any idiot can do this.

I build 35-40 RPS guns for clients on a weekly basis, but this is when things stop being a drop in thing that any moron can do. You start having feeding issues, FPS consistency issues, and you need to have the technical know-how to prevent these issues, which you obviously don't. A FET is obviously required, the cheapest way to achieve that RoF goal is to use SHS 12:1 gears and SHS high torque motor. Alternatively you can use Siegetek 10:1 gears and a Tienly 30k motor if you have money to burn. These are only the main drivetrain components, and there are a ton of supporting components and modifications required.

Could you build me a 35-40 rps gun? Would you just be building the GB or would it be cheaper to buyou an entirely new gun?

Oh this thread is ripe with good reads :)
RPS isn't a goal most real airsofters aim for. My Z Custom build is north of 30 rps but I never run it in full auto and in fact both Semi and Full are locked to semi only now. The rps is a by-product of a snappy as fuck trigger which is what I wanted.
Honestly, you are in for a world of hurt and my advice is to do some research before you continue posting.

Yeah. I guess if I'm playing CQB, I don't need that much rps! I love instant trigger responses so that's what I think I'll do. I'll drop the fact that 30-40 rps is too much and focus on good internals and a great trigger response! I also have experience problems with semi auto not firing when I need it to. It locks up and I have to shoot on auto to "unlock" it. Do you have any problems with this?

Even with stock guns I never had an issue with semi lock. But YMMV.
I have a lot of money in my GB. If you want something with instant trigger response and quality reliable parts its not going to be cheap.
I am sure I could eventually figure it out myself but the good techs have tons of hours and solid builds under their belts that I just pay them to do it for me so I don't have to worry.

tienly 30k motor
SHS 13:1 gears
SHS metal rack piston

36rps

It's really easy to get the rps you want, the real technical part is making it work reliably, which is mostly just shimming, air seal, and doing your AOE.
I've got my M14 shooting 36rps and feeding .36s no problem. But I also put about $300 of parts in it.

Understandable. Could you give me a list of what's in your gun and what you've done to it? That would be great but if you don't want to, I totally understand! ;)

If I used .20 or .25s with an m110-130, would that give me a higher rate? I'm guessing since your using .36s, that your shooting in the high 300s fps?

I dunno, sounds like we have someone here that just wants to cause people pain.

60 RPS at 400+ fps? Jesus fuck. You sound like that guy that wanted to put lipstick on his knives so when he slashed peoples necks there would be "blood".

I would watch out for this guy.

And you want to shoot 60 rounds per second?

Where the hell are you playing so I can stay away from there!

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous and a safety issue IMO

Pesto, I'm not claiming to be an uber leet expert however my advise was sound. To go 40+ rps is not simple and would need high end parts and stuff will break and it'll take time (ie money the op says he doesn't have) to achieve. To hit 30 ish rps (or i guess with a bit more shiming skill and the newish 12:1 gears I just googled) then I guess the 35-40 is just as easy with the exact parts I listed. Simplified a good compressions system desired spring for fps. A fet and good battery and a decent motor. The other advice was basically going 60 rps was a DSG (i still don't think 60 rps is being done on a ssg at 400 ish fps but I guess someone may have)
Also prety sure I didn't say I was an expert and suggested my knowledge was limited to building my own 30 ish rps guns, all of them basically built on the same base. 13:1 gears. A high torque motor on high fps and high speed on my 300fps indoor gun. A good piston (with some lightening) piston head, cylinder parts etc.
Not picking a fight, a lot of what I know is from reading post of yours often in response to my own questions on a build, I just don't feel I've given any bad info. Tried to discourage a 40 or 60 rps build. Suggested a budget 30 ish rps build that even a laymen like me can build and run reliably....
I personally have never tried to achieve 30rps by simply swapping the motor and battery and a fet because I figure lack of stock aoe correction will just shred teeth super fast and then require a rebuild anyhow. To me that's not any type of build at all and something a crappy shop would sell someone as "an upgrade"
Edit: I guess my crappy sentence structure and big blacks of text may make it hard to understand sometimes I spose.

Using a heavier bb is not the factor. Velocity is measured with a .20 no matter what. After that you can use whatever bb you want. The springs will increase the velocity heavier spring is harder to pull and is gonna need more work to run reliably and rps will be sacrificed for fps to a degree. A .36 bb at 275 fps is over 500fps on a .2 that's sniper rifle territory.
Using a heavier bb reduces the initial velocity but the energy is the same (sometimes greater) st the muzzle and the effective range is greater but that's a whole other conversation covered in depth in the stickies on this forum.

If all you want is instant trigger response get a gas blowback gun. My KSC MP9 has high ROF and instant trigger response, no tweaking required.

I would like to know what cqb field allows 400fps.

Shoots 1.4j on both .20s and .30s right now, so no joule creeping at all

With the 30k motor, it's a true torque motor, so you're hitting peak rpm on an M90 and M120. So shouldn't see much of a change in RoF if any at all.
Motors will load up to a certain amount of torque/amperage before they start slowing down, and consequently start to consume exponential amounts of amperage to keep trying to spin up to peak rpm.

That being said, the more torque you load on the motor, the more amperage is gonna go through, the faster it'll wreck your brushes and comm. Which is why running 60+rps is just silly on an AEG.

Unfortunately a lot of fields. Around here every CQB field has moved to 400fps because the new guys are just way too lazy to downgrade.

Wow, that's the first time I've heard of 400 fps CQB fields. Here in Ontario, it's impossible to get insurance for anything above 380; like they will literally not insure you if you go above 380. What rates are those field owners paying?!

I have no idea how much they pay, but I've heard one say that anything under 450 fps was fine as long as players wore face masks.

that's a whole lot of nope. 450 can draw blood through clothing from close range.

I've played at lots of 400-420fps CQB fields. It's really not so bad.
Opening night of BFL was 300fps, totally forget that if you get lit up at close range at 300fps it won't even leave a mark lol

I don't get why people complain about 400 FPS CQB games and then get all giddy about PRZ.

I've played both cqb at 350 fps and outdoors at 450 they are day and night. I'd rather be full auto'd in cqb than semi only on out door fields. That shit stung through my jeans and made it feel like cqb were love taps.

Hahahaha I'm sorry if it sounded like that! I can promise you guys, that is not my intention. ;);)

An indoor field here in Toronto, runs 440 fps 2 nights a week. Haha

As far as I know, there's only 3 indoor fields in Toronto. One's listed at 380 and I'm pretty sure they don't go above it, one's at 350 and I don't think they go above that either, and the last is listed at 360. 440 is just asking for trouble in cqb in my opinion...

One does 2 days for experienced players. Those days they don't even chrono. I had them chrono mine for the simple fact that I just did a couple upgrades on my Tippmann m4, and had no idea what I was shooting at.

Might have been 430, can't remember exactly.

I personally like higher fps. Never have an issue with people calling their hits heh.

Ah, ok, I think I know which one you're talking about (360 listed). Huh... that... doesn't seem like a safe practice to me, but if the players don't mind... I bet the insurance companies don't know that's happening though.

Yeah probably not, and I hope they never do. They're my favorite nights there :)

This thread was entertaining.

I'm going to share a recent event relevant to the discussion on high fps at close range.

I got shot in the arm point blank about a month and a half ago while playing outdoor. I was sneaking up on a guy shooting out of a window in a building I had snuck up on, I had my pistol out, he was shooting at my team mates much further away when I surprised him, he panicked and shot. It didn't really hurt worse than say, a shot to the forehead from 80 feet (I hate that). I called myself out, and after the game everyone was trading stories (as always happens after a good game) and the guy who shot me found me and he apologized profusely, which I thought was nice, but not really needed. He said he was shooting about 425 feet per second. I told him it was all in good fun and we both had a good day. High fps (relatively) at close range isnt bad at all really as long as everyone exercises trigger discipline. Full auto is generally a different story.

I've had way worse paintball wounds, and seen way worse paintball wounds, than I've seen airsoft wounds. I tend to play with fairly responsible people though.

That's just the thing - responsible people. Fields generally can't assume or guarantee any old joe walking onto the field is going to be responsible and not be a douche that'll light everybody up with 60+ rps full auto at 500 fps point blank (kinda exaggerating, but you get my point). With people that you know will exercise trigger discipline, high fps or even rof limits aren't really an issue; it's the bunch that don't is what's causing the headaches and limits.

They (the fields) can, and should ban people who regularly abuse the rules, and/or common sense. In paintball if you got a reputation for being a 'bonus baller' it was very hard to shake.

What is Prz?

http://www.przpaintball.ca/

Airsoft games get hosted there too (usually by deltastone)

We do 420 in cqb here.
300 is fun tho cause you light someone up at 60rps and it doesnt hurt lol

Real men play nerf.

:)

what people seem to forget is we are dealing with miniscule amounts of energy, we could play at 2j and have the exact same amount of hospital visits we have at 400fps........ none! albiet people would have a few more bleeders. Regardless the fps limit of 320 was established for CQB because 320 on a .20g bb gave the exact amount of energy to penetrate an unprotected eye, the philosphy being that if eyepro were to come off and you were to take a shot in the eye you would have a reasonable chance of not loosing said eye. personally i could care less if the CQB limit is 400 or 420 its all the same, provided everyone is taking proper precautions. you assume the risk by stepping on the field. I buy oakley eyewear and always were a strap, my glasses arnt going anywhere and nothing is going through them.

Secondly forgive me if I repeat whats already been said, I did skim the previous pages, briefly. we can give you a parts list that will do anything you ask, and you can put it together, and even if you dont do it right you still might be pretty close to the target, however its going to be inefficient and its going to break. As Pesto said, this is well beyond the expertise and skill level of someone taking a gun apart for the first time, and regardless as pesto also said, its not even needed. Theres a reason pesto builds all his guns in the 40-50 rps range and I do mine in the 40-45 rps range, its the most effecient spot for epic trigger response and longevity, IF its done right. my 416 is pushing 100 000 rounds on its parts, its been relubed twice, and i replaced the pinion, but it already had 50 000 shots on it when I put it in. Build it right and no matter how high stress your build is and itll last a long time.