Yes or no? Systema high speed with m120 spring?
 

I'm running a G36 with hurricane kit and deep fire full metal tooth piston. My stock gears just broke and just wondering has anyone ran an m120 with high speed gears? Oh and if you have any other suggestions, let me know! Thanks in advance

get a bigger battery. get an enlarged foregrip to hold bigger battery. go 9.6v 2100mah nicad for that m120. you can use regular cut systema gears too. they will workk just fine. put in metal bushings and metal spring guide. you could also just buy the ftk from systema too, probably have everything you need and more (except battery).

ok, that sounds good, standard ratio with a 9.6. appreciate it

M120 + high speed gears = metal mush in the mechbox.

mcguyver vs Arnie airsoft's spring guide! Who will come out on top? Will pinoyboy find out the hard way? Stay tuned!

so what exactly are you saying there, saint.

That you're very wrong and probably shouldn't be giving any more advice.

I don't see what's wrong with mcguyver's suggestion. It follows Arnie's guide.

Although, like Arnie's guide, I would strongly suggest AGAINST using high speed gears for an M120. It would be a good way to kill your motor in a short period of time.

Didn't quite mean it that harshly. But the guide on Arnie doesn't "suggests" high speed gear for anything above a M100. Now if that's 'doesn't suggest' because it'll turn your gears into mush within one hicap or because it'll after a dozen hicaps, hell if I know. If macguyver's advice is based on personal experience, then there's something to that. But if not, Arnie's guide would seem to carry more weight in this case. I mean, if the spring in question was to fall in between the M100 and M120, maybe you can disregard Arnie a little more. But M120 is a full spring removed from the highest rated spring regarded by Arnie as fast gear safe... *shrugs* I'm just reading the guide.

oops, I missed the part where mcguyver said:

regarding the high speed gears.

Okay, mcguyver. that's stupid advice.

lol

it'll work, but as I've said, your motor won't last too long. You're putting added stress on it that it wasn't meant to take.

pinoyboy go to FAS.

This is my pet peeve; if you have NEVER done it, or KNOW what the hell you're talking about from experience, then Shut Up.

Suggesting an option that will break a gun is Stupid. Period.

There's tons of stuff I dont know, so I dont reply. Do the same.

Gee Whillikers, I guess there must be a reason that Systema engineers chose to put only an M100 spring (and not an M120) in the High Speed FTK's....

you don't have to use high torgue gears with an m120. if you were going to use a 210%pdi or something like that i would say maybe, but not necessary. a good quality gear will go along way without failure. the key is in the assembly. alot of guys use the g&p guns with 210% pdi springs with reinforced gears and many thousands of rounds and no gear failures. i've removed 4 sets of "super torque up helical cut" systema gears in the last month that were toast. some people think they are the shit, but you don't realize how finnicky the are. you have to pay special attention to the gear shaft/bushing tolerance and shimming because any "wobble" gear or lateral movement relative to the other gears will destroy them. arnie's guide is interesting if you have no experience in a gearbox but that's it. use common sense and quality workmanship and you really won't have any problems. my g&p uses an eg700 motor with zero pinion gear wear and unnoticable gear wear. and as the only "gun doctor" in my area, i see every kind of gun and every kind of problem. and don't think that it's only 1 or 2 guns here and there. i have 5 on my bench currently awaiting parts/owners decision and several more in que. so i think that qualifies my decision more than some guy that says "there must be a reason arnies says that" and you haven't taken a gun apart before. i never advocate the use of stock gears, plastic bushings or stock piston/ head sets or plastic spring guides. and i never let a gun go without a few thousand rounds thru it in harsh fire conditions if i'm not satisfied it will be reliable. and i have never had a failure after my test regimen. and my work i do because i enjoy it and it's not for profit.

as for motor life in my first post in this thread i recommended increasing battery voltage and capacity. for those who have not read my previous posts regarding batteries and motors let me repeat it. as illusion has said you will eventually kill your motor IF you keep to the 8.4 volt battery and here's why: a motor is not turning but is given voltage and current under load ( the spring in an aeg provides this load) will draw massive current (maybe 100 amps) and the motor will fry in a split-second. as the motor turns it generates it's own magnetic flux that in turn generates current in the motor windings that OPPOSES the original current drawn by the motor. this is called counter-emf. as the motor speed increases this counter-emf increases until the synchronous speed of the motor is reached and counter-emf nearly equals current drawn by the motor at zero speed. the net result is a small "running" current that is easily manageable by the motor. altering speed up or down will alter c-emf up or down and running current up or down. increasing the load on the motor by installing a stronger spring means more current will be drawn by the motor upon start-up, and lower speed will result from the motor. this lower speed means lower counter-emf which means the running current of the motor will be higher and eventually it will fail. increasing voltage to the motor will increase its speed and thus increase the counter-emf in the motor, resulting in lower running current and increased motor life. those who don't understand these principles (taught in every trade school and university enginnering class in this country) or frankly don't believe them have no place offering advice pertaining to this subject. if you think i'm wrong, go to university, spend four years in trade school and 15 years working in this field and then you and i can have an intelligent conversation on the subject.

He asked about HIGH SPEED gears, not HIGH TORQUE.

High Speed + M120 = tossing money away.

And yes, I've been to university too.

In short and taken from HERE :

"High Speed Gear: Increases the rate of fire. Do not use a spring stiffer than M100. This gear also gives lower delay time between trigger pull and fire."

If you do use a M120 and high speed gears realise that often when the gears nuke themselves they can very well ( especially if it's the sector gear ) take the piston with it.

In AEG's the higher the fps = lower the rof. (Generally)

I'm pretty sure they arn't using PDI 210% springs unless you guys like playing in the high 400 fps range.

i was just reading my post and i don't see where i said "high speed gears" i said regular cut gears which is basically your standard ratio, no increase or decrease in tooth pitch. at no time did i mention high speed gears. he asked and i said use regular cut gears and larger battery. it's done all the time by most manufacturers.

yeah they are around 460-470 with .2 and 430 or so with .25. at some fields there is not much for cqb and and all ranges are long. if there were going to be gear failures you'd think you would see it with high energy springs but it just hasn't happened here yet. not even piston failures. they have been tappet and selector failures and factory motor/gear engagement issues. these guns use standard ratio gears with an eg700 motor and use 9.6 volt batteries with 14-15 rounds/second. so i don't think my advice is off the mark. if you can't do quality work reassembling a mechbox it doesn't really matter what parts you put because it will fail. i've gotten guns upgraded by either the owner or someone who shouldn't have done it with questions like "it should work fine these parts cost me hundreds" only to open it up and say "oh my god. it's like a bomb went off in there". i've got some helical super torque up gears in my scrap pile now torn to hell. i replaced with reinforced standard ratio gears with no problem with springs from pdi, systema, stock g&g and ics. no failures yet. so i do speak from some experience there. but nobody here that i've heard of even has "high speed gears" as replacements and i don't really see the need to use them as most guys want power/reliability upgrades and just get reinforced gear sets anyway. and some guys dump ammo like it's water between gaming and plinking and some guys are just stupid with their guns. there's lots of guys out ther who know enough to open a mechbox and tinker, but don't even think about things like lubrication, shimming, bushing movement, etc. i've seen guys use vaseline even as lubricant and i've opened up mechboxes with only 3 shims inside.

He asked if he could use high speed gears, you said you could ALSO use regular ratio gears, implying that he could use high speed gears too.

yeah i guess is see where you could get that impression. the word "too" does imply that both can be used but my intent was for "regular cut gears". you're pushing the limit with high speed gears and anything stronger than a stock spring, but i only use standard ratio gears.

For indoor games, I run an MC51 with an EG1000, Systema High Speed Gears, Systema Bearing Bushings, 9.6 volt 3000 MaH Large NIMH battery pack, and an Angel 120% spring. Measuring the ROF with a microphone and counting the soundwaves, it peaks out at 1240 RPM at 318 fps. :tup:

Alright guys, thanks for clearing things up! mcguyver, are a set of systema standard ratio gears good or do you reccomend another brand?

Simple; standard 'reinforced' gears should be fine, or choose a simpler upgrade.

In general, all you really need is a new spring and metal bushings. The rest is optional. The PDI 150 and below tends to be just fine.

The stronger the spring gets, the more complex and expensive the upgrades get.

You may want to read the many posts about Upgrades before doing anything. If you plan on doing all this yourself, check ALL the manuals and picture-based tutorials.

i've had no issues with the systema brand as replacements, but other quality gears i've used have been from ics, g&p and hurricane. use quality bushings and remember shimming and lubrication (most overlooked part in gearbox reassembly). systema gears usually come with a shimming guide and you can follow that but use common sense too. if the shimming guide info still leaves too much play or there is too much resistance for smooth gear rolling then adjust as needed by adding or removing shims. as a general rule never stack more than 3 shims on one shaft, just change shim thickness to accomodate the required thickness. then install the tappet (without the spring) and ensure that the sector gear engages the tappet properly and also the semi-auto trigger release sway bar. then you should be fine.

cool, yea I learned out how important shimming was the hard way. I went through the stock, Area 1000, and Deep Fire single titanium tooth.

But yea, I've been using white lithium greese for lubrication. I just put enough to cover where the gears contact each other. Is that enough?

don't use lithium. it breaks down into a black sludge and becomes real sticky, so it's lubricative value is negligable. use a gear grease with wide temp range and you should be ok. use a silicone grease for the cylinder which can be manufactured using dow corning #111 and 10 weight silicone oil. just thin down the #111 until it's the consistancy of syrup and you're good to go. it's nonreactive with silicone oil used for general lubrication and doesn't break down.