City of Markham Ontario bans all replica firearm sales with new by-law 2012-196
 

Sorry if this has been posted, but as this directly relates to airsoft:

SUBJECT: A By-law to Prohibit the Display, Marketing for Sale and Sale of Imitation and Replica Firearms

See http://www.markham.ca

PREPARED BY: W. Wiles, Manager, By-law Enforcement & Licensing, ext. 4851

RECOMMENDATION:

1) THAT the report titled “A By-law to Prohibit the Display, Marketing for Sale and Sale of Imitation and Replica Firearms” be received; and,

2) THAT Attachment „A‟ –Draft By-law to Prohibit the Display, Marketing for Sale and Sale of Imitation and Replica Firearms” be enacted; and further,

3) That Staff be authorized and directed to do all things necessary to give effect to this resolution.

PURPOSE:

To respond to a request from York Regional Police to pass a by-law to prohibit the display, marketing for sale and sale of imitation and replica firearms in the City of Markham.

BACKGROUND:

The City does not currently regulate the display or sale of firearms of any kind. The City does however prohibit the discharge of guns and other firearms including air guns and spring guns within the municipality under the “Discharge of Guns and Other Firearms By-law 323-86.

OPTIONS/ DISCUSSION:

York Regional Police have expressed concerns about imitation and replica firearms being sold in the City. According to police, the use of imitation and replica firearms is very common in the gang world because of their realistic appearance and the ease with which they can be acquired. When not used in the proper manner, there is a potential for serious injury with replica handguns. Since these guns can be easily mistaken for the real thing, there can be serious consequences for the operator and the police. For example, anyone committing a crime with an imitation or replica firearm could face the same charges as someone using an actual firearm in the commission of a crime. Members of the public, especially minors, may also not be aware of the potential risks and consequences of possessing replica or imitation firearms. When responding to any call involving a
weapon, the weapon is treated as real until determined otherwise putting police officers and suspects at risk. York Regional Police seized 86 imitation and replica firearms in 2010 and 85 in 2011 as a result of police investigations.

This past September, Durham Regional Police responded to a weapons call at Bowmanville High School. The immediate and comprehensive police response caused considerable distress and concern for the school community. As a result of the incident, a student at the school was found to be in possession of a replica firearm and knife. The student was subsequently charged with “weapons dangerous to the public.”

Since the possession and use of the imitation and replica firearms is not illegal, the police are powerless to seize them if they are not being used in the commission of a crime. The purpose of focusing on the sale of these firearms is to make the acquisition of these guns more difficult in Markham. The imitation and replica firearms are not known as being collectibles and have become more of a public nuisance than any other identified use. If they are not readily available for purchase in a retail store it will make it more difficult for to obtain these guns for nefarious reasons. The police are prepared to work with retailers to educate them on the types of guns that would no longer be permitted to be displayed or sold. Enforcement of the by-law would be a last step. The police and city staff will also provide a community education strategy and awareness of risks and public nuisances with imitation and replica firearms.

FINANCIAL CONSIDERATIONS AND TEMPLATE:

No additional costs or staff resources are anticipated should the proposed by-law be adopted. Enforcement of the by-law will be led by York Regional Police in conjunction with By-law Enforcement & Licencing Staff.

ALIGNMENT WITH STRATEGIC PRIORITIES:

The proposed by-law to prohibit display, marketing for sale and sale of replica handguns addresses the concerns of residents and protects their health and well-being.

"Replica Firearm" - means a TOY or other object that is not a Firearm but might reasonably be mistaken for a Firearm and, withou restricting the generality of the foregoing, shall include AIRSOFT guns, compressed air and compressed carbon dioxide powered bb and pellet gun that might reasonably be mistaken for a Firearm.

*** NEW REGULATION:

No person shall display, market for sale or sell an Imitation or Replica Firearm in the City.

You can send the Mayor your comments at:

Frank Scarpitti

101 Town Centre Blvd.
Markham, Ontario, L3R 9W3

Tel: 905-475-4872
E-mail: fscarpitti@markham.ca

Interesting to see how the RCMP ruling on airsoft being an "unregulated firearm" (if they meet the FPS criteria) will impact the inevitable court decision.

How many retailers in Markham?

So wonder when the Markham Walmart, Canadian Tire and other sports stores will be suing them for lost revenues........

I thought replica firearms are federally prohibited.....

Somewhat a bad news I'd say... :/
It won't be hard for people of Markham to still get their toys, but it sets a dangerous precedent for sure... Hope it won't get noticed/discussed too well across other big cities...!

For Importation yes (and transfer of ownership and all), but possession, not sure?

An answer to how many retailers in Markham, there's not many the ones that i know of are just local Wal-Marts and Canadian tire, there are 3 small shops inside Pacific mall and i think revolution airsoft has their shipping facility in Markham, but don't hold me to that lol. Other than that i don't think there's anymore in within the boarders of Markham

The only people buying airsoft guns in Markham are kids and their parents at Pacific Mall.

Ten bucks says that most of those stores will walk 20 meters across the street and open shop in Splendid China Tower, which is south of Steeles and technically in Toronto.

From the Criminal Code

Pretty sure Mach 1 is in Markham too.

I'm fairly certain Criminal Code of Canada does not apply only in importation.

"replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm

ASG are Firearms.
Crap soft is not, unless you paint it Black lol.


No Mach 1 is not in Markham.

This is what worries me. It is black and white as to what "replica firearms" refers to in this context since they basically redefined the meaning here. If you get caught selling in Markham, you will be affected by this by-law.

Armyissue, I don't think the RCMP ruling has anything to do with this since the by-law has nothing to do with ownership, and thus there are no legal conflicts.

Mach1 is at Western Road and Steeles, way on the other side :)

Are they proposing this or is it enacted already? Gotta head to work, no time to search for it on the site

You learn something new everyday.... :rolleyes:

It a Bylaw... infraction = fine

this has nothing to do with the criminal code..

Municipalities are free to define whatever they want as a "replica" it has zero bearing on the criminal code definition.

nor does an alternate definition in the CC provide a valid defense against the bylaw infraction.

Markham perceives a issue with proliferation of retail of things they don't like .. they are free to regulate it.

Enforcing that regulation is a whole different issue

Local bylaw does not supercede federal law. They cannot arbitrarily redefine what a replica firearm is. If that's what they're actually meaning to do good luck with that, because it won't stand up in court.

An update to my previous comment. I did some digging and found the actual bylaw. I'm actually now unclear as to whether Airsoft is or isn't considered a replica firearm in the context of this bylaw.

Source: http://jhcomputer.ca/msf/bylaw.pdf

I'm just going to restate this for anyone skimming this thread or the quoted bylaw text....

The bylaw in question specifically mentions airsoft guns, and therefore appears to attempt to locally override any other definition of "replica firearm".

Secondly, it specifically singles out public nuisance and disturbances as the motivation for this law.

If this is the way things are going to go, the airsoft community will have to act proactively instead of reactively.

I personally think the United Kingdom's UKARA / VCR system is a good model to follow, and should potentially be offered up as an alternative to an outright ban. Sticking our heads in the sand will just lead to copycat bylaws elsewhere.

The city currently waste our tax money on something which is not necessary to do so, they should concentrate about the gang and violence crime than fake or replica firearm. I sometime hope, the gang war will use replica firearm than actual firearm itself. It took me more time, paper work and risk to acquire a replican firearm than getting a PAL and RPAL.

I agree with the ^ style UKARA regulation. FYI I am actually surprised it has taken this long for a municipality to enact something like this.

IE I am more surprised it got out of the backroom and will be put to a city council.

Thanks for posting this, it sucks that it specifically mentions airsoft guns.

Practically-speaking, I don't think it matters whether the bylaw would stand up in court, etc etc. What matters is that it brings unwanted attention and unwanted heat. York region police are going to have marching orders to cause trouble for airsoft enthusiasts.

That, aside from speculation about the momentum that it adds to anti-airsoft measures elsewhere, is the key take-away here.

Thanks for clarifying! We most certainly are not, and the products we sell to promote the sport of airsoft are NOT replicas. The incorrect use of the word "Replica" is disturbing. All legally imported airsoft guns firing the correct fps, are deemed firearms, and not replicas.

Still, this is a pretty big stormcloud for us. I guess it is positive in a way that now I can literally POINT to laws being made (albeit by-laws, but still) that are a direct result of retards in public with airsoft guns.

It means ASG prices might boost up.

Markham definitely took a step back on this one. They should be putting their time and resources into reducing the frequency of actual criminal violence and gang related incidents. Not this bs. At least not all is lost regarding interpretation and application of the law at the provincial and federal level.

I don't feel I should have a need for a license like the UKARA laws in the U.K. nor bright green guns either.

As George Carlin famously put : George Carlin - airsoft guns - YouTube

Not at all true.. as they are not charging with criminal offenses. Municipalities can't redefine what a replica is UNDER THE CRIMINAL CODE

for a city Bylaw offense.. they can define a replica as anything they want

Halton region for example defines a firearm as "anything that fires a projectile"
this would technically include a drinking straw and spitball...

don't confuse Non criminal civil bylaws with Criminal law.

The burden of proof is very low to be convicted of a bylaw offence. The bylaw officers sworn statement is generally considered evidence enough to issue the fine.

I am one of the store in Pacific Mall and kids with their parents does not buy gun in the mall. Only concern I have is they haven't give us any consultation period to ask for our opinion and shutting down our business right away which is not cool at all

under the Criminal code.. but under this bylaw they certainly are.

no it's not cool at all .. and I'd be making a big stink about it if I where in your situation.

I like the part about crimes with "replica guns". If I am robbed at gunpoint, I hope to God the robber is using an airsoft gun! Whether I know it or not it is inherently safer. LOL!

exactly.I feel so much safer now that they will ( for sure because of the bylaw, ahem) use real firearms.
Let's just hope criminals won't start assaulting people with lawnmowers or garden hoses because that would quickly make gardening a real hassle...

I would like to bring up another point that this by-law is nothing new.

It has been brought up in the past (for an unrelated reason) that there is an identical by-law in effect in Brampton. It is almost word for word.

Source: http://www.brampton.ca/EN/City-Hall/...rm-replica.pdf

I think unwanted attention comes from all forms. Guys geared up and driving down the road doesnt help, nor does shooting at a water park on a sunny saturday afternoon.

Why this doesnt get looked at closer is a mystery to me. There are plenty here who are trying to grow the sport, and several who for good intention or bad-aren't.

I think if you are a resident of markham or a business owner operating in markham you need to get organized and write your city councilor about this. The more people that push back on this the more they may reopen it for discussion.

Obviously some suzie soccer mom saw that article a while back about the kids getting their shit taken away for playing with it on the street and wrote into city council to complain about it. People who play need to step up and defend their passtime, not bury their heads.

Another issue that baffles me. How does Canadian Tire get away with selling Clearsoft in Brampton? I see the same issue in Markham.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en

Try postal code L6W3R7 (Brampton). It shows it in stock. It's also instock at my local Markham store. Why are they still being allowed to do so?

Yes, there are several throughout the country. It is this theory that airsoft guns are dangerous that bothers me. They are dangerous for the irresponsible user, YES. but not for others and not for the police. Again, if a cop is in a gunfight with a criminal, I would think he would prefer the criminal be using an airsoft gun.

It is only irresponsible use that makes them dangerous, then only for the user. I can use almost any object irresponsibly and make it dangerous. These laws are requested by short sighted police departments.

Having a bylaw and enforcing it are two different things. They will use it when they want to and/or ignore it until someone gives clear direction on which organizations it should be enforced upon.

I think the large retail establishments with clearsoft will be on the "ignore" list.
If I was in pacific mall, I would be concerned.
Online retailers, more business for you.

Bylaws are everywhere. Take for this one. Shoot tin Cans in your back yard with an airsoft gun and max fine is $100,000.
Same goes for little game of 6 on 6 in the woods.

Mississauga:

PART I – SHORT TITLE
1. This By-law shall be known as the “Discharge of Firearms By-law”.


“Firearm” means any barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet, missile or other
projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing bodily injury or death to a
person, and includes anything that can be adapted for the use as a firearm, and for the
purpose of this by-law includes a slingshot, a spring gun, air gun, paint ball gun and air
soft gun;
10. No person shall discharge, cause to be discharged or permit to be discharged a Firearm or
Bow within the limits of the City.

CONT (Exception)
16. The prohibition in section 11 does not apply to an owner or occupier of a property:

(e) where an enclosed building, or part thereof, is used for the discharge of a paint ball
gun or air soft gun that are used for paint ball gaming or air soft gaming where there is
no danger of any projectile fired or discharged from the paint ball gun or air soft gun
passing out of the building or into any other part of the building that is not used for the
lawful discharge of the paint ball gun or the air soft gun; and

ART IX - PENALTY
19. (1) Every person who contravenes any provision of this By-law, is guilty of an offence
and is liable to a fine, and such other penalties, as provided for in the Provincial
Offences Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, and the Municipal Act, 2001, as each may be
amended from time to time.
(2) In addition to Subsection 19 (1) of this By-law, any person who is charged with an
offence under this By-law by the laying of an information under Part III of the
Provincial Offences Act, and is found guilty of the offence is liable, pursuant to the
fine provisions of the Municipal Act, 2001, to a fine of no more than $100,000.00

Everyone trots out the old " grow the sport" BS

this activity is growing all on it's own.. most venue owners and fields are really just trying to keep up with demand.

I think we do a pretty good job as a community self regulating and being conscious of bad press.

The issue is with the explosive growth in airsoft owners out there.. the the coefficient of boneheads to normal prudent people is going up.. there is bound to be more incidents .. and so bound to be more regulation to react to such incidents.

We are going to be victims of our own success.. we may in fact "grow the sport" right out of existance

It's not bullshit. Characterizing it as bullshit is, frankly, bullshit. Your dour counterargument is not any better than what you call bullshit. How about some constructive ideas on the topic for a change?

If we had UKARA/VCR, we could:

1) play
2) buy/import
3) protect a larger number of children from embarrassing accidents
4) legitimize the sport as a reenactment / extension-of-paintball type activity within the eyes of a larger portion of the public (more = better)
5) provide a framework that helps police
6) nip future bullshit in the bud like they have in the UK, or at least nip it more-so than we're nipping at the moment, which amounts to zero
7) provide a better framework for insurance
8) normalize age verification nationally

Honestly Brian, you have got to be at least somewhat aware of how frustrating *your* flavour of stance is on this for those of us who trot out the so-called BS.

Even if this were true, and you KNOW it isn't due to all the ridiculous things that happen in this community, this is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand, because the community isn't the problem, as you mention next:

Brain, you can go be a victim if you want. Some of us enjoy this hobby enough to want to at least suggest other ideas and trade ideas on the matter. With all due respect, what you're advocating, which I believe boils down to essentially doing nothing, isn't working.

You always chime in on these threads... Clearly you give a hoot. You seem like a reasonable guy in person. Why not trade ideas instead of pessimism? It can't hurt.

Mack I'm sure you're a nice guy but you're still green.

If you roll back the clock on this site you will read a very involved thread where members here who put a detailed proposal to the government to enact regulations similar to the exemptions that players in the UK have. They had the door slammed in their face.

Do not believe the scene in the UK is Nirvana. Their exemption was a hail Mary pass that let them keep playing. They could loose that with the stroke of a pen

This sport won't "grow" by any other means than more players .. more players logically result in more incidents .. more incidents will result in more legislative action at the local level..

Federally .. the government has sorted out their approach to airsoft guns.. and In my opinion we have a pretty good situation now with respect to access and pricing.. the airsoft market and community is Booming which is resulting in the increase in the public eye.

Id like to think I'be had a hand in that.. I've been a vocal proponent for this activity since 2005.. I've put myself out there in public and stood up for our activity.. I use MY LEGAL NAME in this forum. and been on National television and in national newspapers advocating for this community, and I have the lumps to prove it..

How many times have you had people threaten to rape your wife.. and burn down your house for your activities advocating for this community?

it seems to me YOU are all talk

As soon as you require a license to do a thing you hand control to the state.. who can eliminate that access at it's whim.. Legislative control of this activity at a national / federal level is exactly what we don't want.


the UK model was a "take it or leave it" last ditched effort to keep some access to airsoft guns in that country.. it's not a model to follow.. it's a cautionary tale to avoid.

The way things are now is frankly better than it has EVER BEEN in Canada regarding the use and access to airsoft guns, and the proliferation of legal venues to use them. I believe that some of the risks I have taken and the work I have done has contributed to this state of affairs. ( maybe I'm fooling myself..I don't know)

The FACT the municipalities are singling out airsoft guns in legislation is proof positive that Airsoft is no longer in the closet but well into the public eye. We have what we wanted.. but there is a downside.. evidenced by local legislation such as noted above.

I'm sorry but there is NO WAY to make this activity palatable to the majority of Canadians.. they don't get it.. they never will. some of them think we are SICK for even wanting to look at a gun. All we can hope for is that a majority remain ambivalent, and continue to believe that individual rights and freedoms trump the unease that most people experience at the mention of shooting sports.

Right now, this looks to me more of a tool to swat a bothersome fly for the local PD.

Until I hear about players getting fines at a game, I'd stay calm about it.

The ones who really need to look into this right now are the local retailers. I dont see what prevents them to go see their local town representative are have their case heard.

If you pay taxes, you have a right to state your case.

exactly.. if everyone followed every city bylaw to the letter.. commerce , and freedom would be abolished.

wow that happened to you for airsoft? these persons must have been pretty angry against plastic guns, wtf?

that would be france lol

they were the militant anti-violence crowd, obviously. don't know you guns kill people?

These were people from this community who did not like my efforts to bring a more public face to this activity.

I sincerely hope these people have never shown their face at an event since.

Seriously, what the fuck.

well lets not wander too far off topic,

it happened a few years ago now.. and a lot has changed.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of your efforts, and you can probably agree that it's very easy to see your posts on a regular basis and get the impression I got. I'm sure there are others that have the same impression. Not saying it's fair, but it's what I got. No offense or upsetting intended, so my sincere apologies for that.

For what it's worth, I think you make a good and reasoned argument. I'll try to explain how/why I think the UK system might still be a better idea than where we are headed, though.

I think you over-estimate the efficacy of strategies in the vein of "personal freedom". I believe that the rights that would be awarded to an officially-recognized sports and/or enthusiast community or even to a business community would be far more powerful than ones that have been granted to a loosely knit group of individuals, largely through a loop hole. It's no accident that in the United Kingdom the primary mindshare footprint of the airsoft regulations is UKARA -- a business consortium. This is a growing and substantial business that employs more and more people in the UK. In the United States, anti-airsoft laws have successfully been defeated by the airsoft business "lobby". What I'm suggesting here is that UKARA in the UK and similarly-knit groups of businesses in the USA have established an industrial foothold. Big footholds are harder to disrupt.

In Canada, we have a very loosely-knit group of businesses and people, but nothing like what we see down south or over the ocean.

In addition, I think too many people here are trying to avoid a VCR/UKARA type route because they're conflating the freedom to play airsoft and own airsoft guns with themes of firearms ownership rights, with a touch of libertarian ethics. That's a perfectly fine personal stance to have, but I think it's massive overkill for the issue at hand and terrible for effective community outreach. In the UK this vein of discussion probably never even got visited because they have very few gun rights to begin with, and it was much easier to get the public to buy in on the sport being an extension of legitimate -- and from the public's view totally benign -- hobbyist and re-enactment activities. From the perspective of evaluating effective marketing strategies for the airsoft lobby, I believe that "cold dead hands" flag waving type branding is always going to lose. In the public eye, that just reenforces the "bunch of gun-toting crazies" view, which is bad. Airsoft is not junior firearms, and I would argue it doesn't factor into the same set of logic with respect to how we interact with the governments and out rights, and so I think our interests can and must be marketed differently.

We just need to consider better strategies of social engineering than we have already.

The issue is.. that airsoft guns are regulated under the firearms act, and the criminal code provisions governing firearms.. these issues are linked.

you can't say something is different.. if the government has already set in law that they are not.

Lots of people talk about "legitimizing" the sport..

This activity is already legitimate it is 100% legal to participate in airsoft games, in fact the police often go out of their way to state they have no issues with legal and legitimate recognized uses for airsoft guns.. the bylaw posted above does as well.

Shooting each other with airsoft guns is already 100% legal and a recognized legitimate use for airsoft guns.

why would we want to add more regulation to an already recognized legal and legitimate pastime?

Our right to posses airsoft guns is already confirmed in the Criminal code, our ability to import , purchase and transfer most airsoft guns is 100% legal and permitted.

so if every aspect of this activity is already 100% legal and legitimate.. what exactly is more regulation for?

In the UK it is a serious criminal offense to posses a replica firearm.. in Canada it is 100% legal

City Bylaws are designed to provide an enforcement tool in the case of unfettered proliferation of an undesired event or type of behavior.

The federal government has stepped out of the way or retailers and importers.. the provinces have no jurisdiction to control airsoft guns.. because they are proscribed under the Criminal code.

Any and all control then has to fall to cities, We can't both call for age verification and control of the sale to minors and Criminals for ourselves and then raise a cry when cities also try to do the same thing.

Why would you get a fine at a local game. The bylaw is restricting the manufacture, sale and marketing of replicas in retail situation.... Not the use or ownership. This seems to be a kinda pointless approch by the police as most airsoft stuff they are complaining about is probably purchased online. The bylaws we deal with around where I live hamper us a bit more as they prohibit discharge of any projectile, but I dont believe that bylaws can make it prohibited to own a legal firearm (ie airsoft that falls withing RCMP fps limits).

Back to the bylaw issue at hand go fight it. Sitting at home, complaining on this board will fix nothing, write letters show up to public hearings. Fight or be silent.

You might want to make the point that this bylaw does nothing to stop those who wish to break the law and only effects those who obey it. And perhaps making an effort to educate potential users and existing users rather than ban everything would be a more useful approach.

Oh and on the UK example no no no ask the real steel owners how well that sort of thing worked out for us.

I doubt it would change much, most of the sales is in Pacific Mall and you know how many businesses there follow the law? Let's be honest, do you really think this bylaw would stop sales in PMall? At least there's Splendid China Tower across the street from PMall on the Toronto side.

Wait. What?

its 100% legal to own a replica firearm, just what he said...

[QUOTE=shaharov;1720511]Why would you get a fine at a local game.[QUOTE]

Exactly where I'm going with this...

We have a saying in Québec :

''This is a storm in a glass of water''

AFAIC, replica firearms are illegal. At least, that's what I've always thought. Guns that shoot past 366FPS (or whatever it is) are uncontrolled firearms and thus, are legal.

We've used the "obtained before 1998" loophole towards sub-366FPS guns, but technically guns released after 1998 and shoot below that threshold are in fact, illegal to own, acquire, and to transfer.

Source: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

TRANSFER of replica firearms is illegal, ownership is 100% legal

After reading that page, my understanding is the same as ken's:

You are wrong.

As quoted above. Any other replica firearms are Prohibited Devices - and are illegal to possess, acquire, and transfer. If you own a replica firearm that was released after 1998, it would then be physically impossible to obtain before 1998 - and thus, illegal.

sorry.. you are wrong Possession has no date of acquisition limit

The criminal code states possession of replicas ( regardless of when how or where you got them) is not an offense

and here we go again.... Only a court of law can define a replica, it's done on a case by case basis in light of prosecution for a offense.

And a 2010 BC lower court ruling significantly raised the bar on what can be considered a replica.

Before you spout absolutes.. you should at least be up on current jurisprudence.

RCMP "fact sheets" do not represent the law.. the law represents the law and the RCMP fact sheets are woefully out of date and simplistic.

lol exactly...

police would have to walk past 100 vendors selling bootlegged movies and bags before they found the airsoft. So by then they would already be too tired to cared lol

Hey, isn't that Adrian kids operation based out of Markham? I guess if Bylaw Enforcement goes to talk to him this is one more thing to add a fine for as well as possibly not having a business license.

Allow me to play the devil's advocate here for the purpose to understand the legalities of Airsoft more clearly. Quoted below, you made mention of replica firearms specifically.

The main reason why I raised the issue, is because our sport is not 100% black and white legally acceptable as you made mention in your post. We are very much, and still are operating within "the grey area" at the moment. Ruling out more legislation as bad may be a little premature.

While the RCMP fact sheet is not in itself law, it is very much an accurate summary. There is nothing wrong with possessing a replica firearm, but there is a problem with acquiring a firearm that was released after 1998. If you possess a replica firearm that was released after 1998, it is simple to deduce that you were only able to acquire it after 1998 and thus, you have committed an offence.

Whether or not guns shooting below 366FPS (or whatever) are considered replica firearms is another story.

I will comment a bit later on this "your relatively new" shit.

Counting backwards from 100.

Need to choose my words for the jackasses who feel the ASC join date tag somehow gives them the all mighty grand poo bahh position.

It's only grey if you don't understand the law.

its only a problem if the item acquired is in fact a replica, and this can only be assessed by a court with a side by side comparison with a real firearm of the same model.

The BC lower court decision indicated that just external resemblance was insufficient to meet the test.. the item must also replicate with near precision the internal attributes of a real firearm.. Very very few airsoft guns would meet this test.

Every airsoft gun meets the test of being a imitation Firearm, some are deemed to be unregulated firearms .. but only those that have been entered as evidence in a prosecution have been proven to be replicas. Once Deemed a replica.. such a definition applies only to that specific item.. and not at all to the other identical models that may be possessed by other people.

the UK definition for a replica is broader than that in Canada, and is closer in fact to the Canadian definition for an imitation firearm.

In addition.. in Canada you are innocent until proven guilty. So coming into possession of an item that is not proven to be a replica can not be an offense.

AAAnD all of this has been hashed out countless times.. do we really need to go there again?

I really don't see why everyone is making such a big deal outta this.
NAME 1 GOOD RETAILER IN MARKHAM!
NAME ONE RETAILER IN MARKHAM THAT HAS GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE, GOOD PRICES, AND ALOT OF GUNS IN STOCK!

Who is buying airsoft off the shelves in P-Mall anyway?? Have you seen the prices?? The ban of sale is a good thing because if you are buying an airsoft gun at those locations you know nothing about the sport and are probably the idiot shooting squirrels and your friends at school.

Try reading the thread. They make their points very clearly.

For those less educated folk (and post #8 of this thread):

Someone please tell me where this says ownership is illegal.

Further the RCMP / CFP website fact sheets are not always correct. Always use them in reference to the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code.

EDIT: Is this a big deal for the majority of airsoft in Canada, maybe as it could set a dangerous precedent. Is it right now, not really.

just as a post script..

"replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;


As I mentioned above .. in 2011 a BC lower court decision ( that has not been appealed to my knowledge) the definition of replica was applied more stringently and the Judge determined that in order to be a replica the item must exactly resemble or resemble with near precision a real firearm both internaly and externaly. Obviously this is a pretty high test.. and would exclude any and all AEGs form being replicas.

As a lower court decision in BC it is not a sweeping precident.. but it is a precident all the same.

( this does not have any effect on CBSA's definition )

We can debate this all day long but the core of this comes from this:

In recent weeks, a Markham woman was shot in the face during a stroll through a local park with her child and a 15-year-old Newmarket boy was detained by police after being seen casually strolling down the street with an AR-15 assault riffle, which turned out to be a replica.
Gun-related calls often attract a large police presence due to the innate volatility of such reports.
Since the beginning of 2011, York Regional Police has seized 114 replica guns.



"The problem is heightened by residents' concern about firearms and the increased appearance of the airsoft weapons in public areas. Earlier this month, a Woodbridge man was arrested and charged after police allege he pointed a silver air gun at a fellow driver in retaliation for the being on the receiving end of a middle-finger while on Hwy. 401"

cont

Days earlier, police arrested six youths after receiving a call about a gun being loaded in a moving car in Aurora.
One airsoft enthusiast and small business owner said the industry is very stringent when it comes to rule breakers.
"It's booming right now and competes head-to-head with paintball," said Emilio Cariati, manager of Mach 1 Airsoft. "We have strict rules (and) players can get blacklisted and will have a tough time finding a place to play if they don't take a responsible approach.
"You just hope they don't fall into the wrong hands. There are always going to be idiots capable of doing wrong in any sport."


Reaction:
Cut off the supply.

That would be unfortunate for such a great sport hobby/passtime.

I agree with you 100% it is rather reactionary..

but this is kinda my point about the airsoft community being a vicitm of it's own success.. as popularity grows .. incidents like this will increase.

Far more incidents happen with paintball... walk through almost any wooded area or wooded public park and you will find evidence of illicit paintball games.

kids shoot passing cars with paintballs pretty much daily somewhere in the GTA.. most are not reported to police.

It's the realism of the airsoft guns that are problematic.. coupled with the gunshy nature of the public today.

City bylaws are not likley to be very effective in curbing the growth of this activity.. but it certaily could put a crimp in the proliferation of storefront sales, at least in Markham.


The story above should be posted in every thread where an underage person mentions how "mature" he is, and how he should be able to buy airsoft guns.

Our SUV convoy got lit up by paintballs on the way to Rhino II in the middle of buttfuck Irving Country at like 2300h..

Off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that would be a cool scenario to play out.

SUV convoy going to some location for a night op assault gets ambushed because of bad intel (say Nerf Rockets hit leading and trailing cars and block off exit for the rest of the SUV convoy) and you have to react to an unknown number of Op-For attacking the convoy. It might be cool to include into a larger 24 hour milsim where you have a large area that you can play that out in.

But other than that, definitely not cool when you're just cruising around.

We have done it several times at Ladytresses Udora field, it was great and more fun than I thought it would be..................and now we are officially thread derailed ):

I believe a young woman was blinded for life here in ottawa when a retard 14 year old in a car unloaded a paintball gun in her face. I don't think airsoft or paintball is any different in regards to irresponsible use.

Minors should be monitored when in possession of them, both airsoft and paintball alike. Though unfortunately, airsoft seems to get more bad press when shit like this happens, even when you can find paintball guns that look like m4s. suzie soccermom can't tell the difference between a paintball gun, an airsoft gun or a real gun for that matter.

Hell even in the cgep shooting a few years back, the teens didn't think that retard's guns were real either.

That was in 2003 I think Lurking and your right she was blinded for life by a drive by paintballing. It was really negative press at the time for airsoft and paintball alike.

I don't tend to agree with Brian often, but he is certainly right on this, at least partially. I don't think the community is so much a victom in this as we are complacient.

All three of the above posters miss the point entirely. This isn't the first municipal government to take this approach. Brampton has a similar bylaw on it's books, just not publicized.

All municipalities take a look at what is trending in terms of enforcement issues, and tend to adopt similar bylaws for issues elsewhere, that are becoming issues in that municipality. A good example of this is motorcycles and noise pollution in recent years. Caledon had major issues with excessive noise on some of it's more scenic roads frequented by HD riders - noise level standards were adopted that targeted all potential offenders - whether the exhaust system was aftermarket or stock, and met Federal noise level standards. Road-side testing has become common. In fairly short order, Oakville, Burlington, and a few other municipalities enacted similar, if not word for word legislation to deal with this issue, that over-rode Federal standards on the municpal level.

The point? The Markham ban might not be affecting you now - but it very well could, very soon. It's NIMBYism on a Governmental level, pure and simple.

What really concerns me.. is the fact that local governments seem to feel empowered to wipe away a person's livelyhood with the stroke of a pen and a show of hands.

There are people in this community that derive some and in cases all of their income from the sale of airsoft guns.

and if they happened to be conducting business in Markham.. their business is now Illegal.

I guess this is why so many firearm busineses are located in Alberta..

My main concern if this spreads. As Brian said some people make there lively hoods on this business. With Markham not really having much airsoft business (or atleast good businesses) this isn't really a big blow to our community (yet). What worries me is, will this spread? If this spreads than we have a problem, now it is just an annoyance.

Part two on this seems to be that since there are no local stores to shut this bylaw will have the desired result.

That will lead to escalation, not a repeal or rethink.

just stock up on guns while they're affordable and then, back to being low profile.

is that gang thing a real argument or is this all about stupid assholes being dangerous?
how do gangs function in Canada? I thought it was a bunch of Russians,Greeks and bikers who really only swear by real steel arms ?

Hard to say if it will spread.. the unthinking teen is certainly not limited to Markham..

We had a bonehead walking down the street with a M4 on the way to TAC11 in Toronto.. Stupidity is not geographically isolated.

Seeing as there are a number of retailers in Toronto I would think that they would be keeping their finger on the pulse of city hall and would sound the alarm if this was on the horizon here in Toronto.

it's a hard sell though.. "public safety" seems to trump common sense at every turn.

what we need is someone to monitor GTA municipalities and sound the alarmif it dies come up so that a represenative of the reailers can get interveiner status at the session in which the bylaw is to be read.

often half ofthe guns shown in police "weapon captures" are not real guns.. so yes.. airsoft guns do fill a sizable niche in criminal culture.

If in most cases all you do is "show" your gun to get the desired result an airsoft gun will serve.. and obviously if you are busted with one on you.. firearm charges are not likley.. The crow is not likley to pursue weapons charges in the case of a "toy gun"

This issue is real.. and a problem... and compounded by stupid abuse of the use of airsoft guns by unthinking minors and teens

So where do we go from here?

Basic tactics show that pre-empting leads to victory.

So why not apply this basic formula to this problem and take the problem where it should be taken?

Because we are divided so we fall.

This sounds odd, but is there a way to get to the cops to ask them how we can help? They are obviously aware of ASC so perhaps there is a way of getting to them to ask what we can do?

When I opened our field, I called the cops twice and they were happy to hear we were proactive and updated the dispatch accordingly. As I mentioned a few times, one of them was even interested in the idea etc. Like "wow, cool way to spend a Sunday...carry on."

I am reaching here so the guys who want to take pot shots at an idea can piss off.

I don't know.. there has been over the years several attempts to build a consensus and develop an association that may serve as a "official Face" for the responsible Airsoft owners.. but it never really got off the mark.

maybe the retailers need to form an association to protect their interests?

Its like this.

They can be ahead of the curve or behind.

This is not something where asking permission after the fact will work.

I would love to say that there is a way to help - but i'm pessimistic by nature, and i don't see a way - ASC isn't a governing body, and we can't even police our own membership effectively as far as under-age access goes (paid banner adverts viewable by all) or mature and appropriate display and handling of airsoft weapons go (Barrie Zombie walk a few years ago, people attending events with 'open-carry' of weapons, regardless of proximity of the general public come to mind). ASC is also not the be-all and end-all of the airsoft community, with facebook groups, game organizers hosting games with profit, rather than integrity in mind, and backyard 'airsoft wars' so prevalent amongst the under-aged and ignorant.

It's obvious that the police don't have the resources to deal with this, in terms of public education AND enforcement - in this case, they have gone to the Markham bylaw enforcement to enact a blanket ban instead to nip the problem at it's root source, the retailer.

We could be seeing the results of the rapid expansion of airsoft in a particular municipality, and the resultant implosion that occurs when something potentially hazardous to the public health gets too big, too fast.

Those that can keep it discrete and appropriate, will continue ordering the weapons online (if necessary) and playing at appropriate spots with minimal worry of a legal back-lash. Those that get nailed with the bylaw enforcement/increased police oversight, will be spending their money on fines and legal representation instead of buying more guns. Not necessarily a bad thing, when common sense has failed, with individuals guilty of bad judgement - youth or adult.

As far as retailers in potentially affected areas go, i'm afraid that it is the interests of the few, against the will of the many.

My opinion, take it as you will.

Funny, I can still remember shitting my pants the very first day I got an airsoft gun.

Didn't have a gun bag so I put it in a lawn chair bag from Canadian tire; if I had to take if from my car to house/store etc.

So simple and yet so important. I guess it really is going to go the way it goes and the private scene will prevale in the end.

More importantly than the big picture stuff, does this include anyone living within Markham borderlines posting classified ads on ASC?

It looks broad enough to cover private sales. But I mean.... ASC isn't Markham technically and worst to worst meet somewhere outside Markham.

Yes, I also felt somewhat paranoid with the purchase of my first airsoft gun. A proper gun bag was my second purchase that was airsoft related. I dare say that i would be in the minority, when it comes to that protective purchase priority.

The commonality is that you and i, relatively speaking, are old and have a keener sense of public awareness and perception than average when it comes to anything that resembles a weapon.. replica or real steel. The younger set generally doesn't think these things through as much. Unfortunately, over-regulation results, and the School of Hard Knocks has to fill in, where common sense is absent.

Unfortunately, i think it's going to be a case of sitting back, and watching the resultant fall-out, and hoping that it doesn't filter down from the retailer level, to events being hosted by responsible organizers at appropriate locations.

The positive side, is this raises awareness here, and those who have money and time invested in this as a hobby or business, have a vested interest in things not being screwed up, in situations that they can control. Retailers may well have to go online sales only, if their municipality is affected.. or move to a friendlier business environment.

Well, I just did my part and picked up a new VFC quake from Mach1. Might just stick it on a sheft and look at it.

I win.

ps---awesome service thanks again Rich.

+1.

Once for a while, the Markham city government likes to show the public they have done something about fire arms control by screwing those small toys retailers at PM. I remember they raid one shop back in 2007. It went to the A1 page of newspapers.

You are absolute right that they are never so enthusatic about the real gangs and gun violence.

Plan an ASC Movember Shirtless CAR* wash in Markham. Full Tact gear no shirt.oYou'll get the Media and the Police at Once.
Raise cash for Assholes
and raise
Awareness of Asshole..... that ru(i)n the City

*CAR --- Carbine Automatic Rifle
(No really just automobiles)

POlice won't charge you with a Bylaw offence. You'll need byl-aw officers writing you tickets

lolwut?

But FYI, the bylaw empowers actual YRP officers with enforcement and unless you are advertising your gear for sale, then you will not be affected by the bylaw.

Solution! Do not age verify markham police ! They will never be able to veiw our classifieds bawhahha!