Carbon Fibre Custom Tightbore
 

Hi,

I am new to airsoft and the forums. I am aquiring a Real Sword SVD and have been searching for a 700mm tightbore (6.01mm) to upgrade. It would seem finding one of these is difficult to say the least. However, I have access to a facility capable of making barrels of this specification, or any specification for that matter. I'm just curious if others might be interested in a product like this, simply because the cost decreases as the numbers increase. I'm led to believe the cost would be competetive with what is on the market currently. I would like to hear any thoughts you guys might have. Thanks!

-Greg

I would be interested.

I'd like to see trial runs first, and some analysis of the inner boar that show how precisely it was milled (or however it would be made)

Not too familiar with all the types of carbon fiber, but aren't the resin/epoxy used to apply the strength to the carbon fiber an issue with BB's Won't that resin eventually chip away faster than a metal/aluminum barrel would?

I do like the idea of having a lighter gun and also like the idea that carbon fiber would be useful for vibration dampening, but just not too sure of the epoxy/resin durability. I'd hate to have to buy several barrels or have it wear out faster than your traditional tight bore barrel.


I'd like to see some testing done before I jump on this.

Honestly, I am very new to all this and I'm just kinda throwin ideas out there due to my frustration at the lack of a precision barrel for my gun. I will most definitely explore the option and as far as durability, and specs, well I'll have to wait and test these things out. I will for sure post any info I might have.

How about you shoot the gun first before 'upgrading' it.

thanks for the tip, but I don't think I'm going to be so blown away by this guns performance that upgrading will be out of the question

Sums it up right there.

dude..its a toy gun. i had an airsoft gun about 11 years ago while you were watching teletubbies

seen all the videos. hence my purchase

So are you new to airsoft or have you had them for 11 years?

i had glock 19 gbb. it was fun. i got rid of it. then airsoft became illegal. end of story. i never claimed to be a guru, i just kind of took offense to your implication that i don't know what i'm buying. i can pretty much assure you there isn't enough 'hop up' on the planet to make this gun what i'd like it to be (real)

I had my first airsoft gun 24 years ago so I guess I win.

A carbon fiber barrel isn't going to fly. If you were a baker and had access to a oven it would make just as much sense to make one out of bread.

i certainly wasn't expecting to encounter hostility here, but that's fine. everyone has their opinions. as for the quarter century guy, you win indeed although i didnt know there was a competition going on here. i simply started this thread for the reasons stated in the initial post. i actually thought i was doing something 'good'

I just think it would take too much time and money to develop the process of creating a carbon fiber barrel, and there's a relatively good probability it won't outperform more conventional barrels.

One good thing that might come out of this, is that we might be able to pursue different pitch of the rifling on a tk-twist-like barrel.

i spoke on the phone with a guy today capable of making a 6.01mm +.01/-00 ID carbon fibre tube 700 mm in length. pick an OD. as for the machining that's something else.

lol teletubbies

Are you machining the carbon fiber, or making a mold and baking it?

i will still need to inquire about surface finish and durability

i would personally have to machine it, but as for the tubing its manufactured by a carbon fibre specialist. im not baking this up at home in my kenmore.

i actually dont even know or care how they make it, im only concerned about the quality of the finished product they can provide me

I'm pretty sure CF wont hold up like a stainless steel barrel would.

Also, the SVD's barrel is 6.03, First Factory, KM and several other companies make 700mm TBB's.

Making a barrel is pretty damn hard work, the tolerances required are VERY tight.

You seem to know your way around CF, how does that material stand up to abrasion?

It depends on the epoxy they use, but I do believe it would wear away over time. Maybe there could be some sort of ceramic coating or do some electroplating?

ok ...here's the story. i am aquiring a RS SVD. i want it to be kick ass, right? so im poking around for upgrades. as far as tightbores for this gun, there are none above 650mm and i need 700. edgi seems to be the only option but i cant tell if they even exist anymore. so im sittin here with my vaporizer theorizing about tightbores. i saw some posts somewhere about some guy making these carbon fibre barrels, so, i google 'carbon fibre tube'..call a company, give them the specs and ask them if they can make it. he says yes, he'll call me back with a quote. i dont know jack about carbon fibre and its durability. im a cnc machinist/programmer for 10 years and i was simply throwing an idea at the airsoft community cuz i thought it seemed viable. i will continue to explore it and be happy to share anything i come up with. thanks to those who actually are serious.

Don't know about Ceramic but electroplating probably won't work as the item being electroplated must be metallic AFAIK..... (been a while since I took high school Chemistry).

Would a "powder coat" possibly improve durability?

As for the barrel and the tolerances.... What kind of consistency in the "straightness" of the barrel would we be looking at? It's fine and dandy to say 6.03mm +/- .005mm but what about kinking in the barrel? That causes more accuracy problems than having a "consistently" tight bore (ie. you could have a 6.01mm +/- .0005mm barrel that's kinked to hell vs a "straight" 6.08mm +/- .005mm barrel and the straight one will probably be more accurate since it's "straighter" and doesn't introduce weird forces from the BB "bouncing" around).

I'd be interested but I'd like to see a small production run and some stringent scientific/quantitative testing as to how much the accuracy is "improved" (compares to or meets) the performance of something like a Prometheus or Madbull tightbore first.

those are all great questions that i indeed would like to ask the manufacturer. i have a good understanding of straightness and roundness tolerancing and i still have to say the idea seems viable. i will post all details given to me by the manufacturer.

prometheus and madbull are great but they dont make a 700mm

Sorry if I sound really obnoxious and mean and stuff, forums tend to do that to people. I'm the kind of guy that always points out all the flaws and makes everybody feel terrible, because I try to makes sure as many of the problems get dealt with ahead of time, so imagine me smiley and happy or something :P.

Anyways, edgi is still alive and kicking. I just bought a 430mm 6.01 from airsoft gi for my vsr project. I do know DBC doesn't exist anymore as a company, but he still makes barrels occasionally if you message him. I'm not sure about shipping from the US, but it's there if you look.

Thinking back to it, electroplating th CF should work, as CF is conductive, and I think that's the route I'd want to take if I wanted to pursue this, and had a company to back me up.

I do want to point out, that you probably won't even notice the difference between a 650mm and 700mm barrel but I think edgi is your best bet unless you're set on making a cf barrel.

the carbon fibre is molded around a steel 'blank' which i would like to assume was straight and true in order to maintain the tolerances

You may be right about the metal, but I thought that all you needed was a conductive material, and CF is.

I'd imagine a powdercoat would either be too "tacky" or not smooth enough. Over time I guess it would wear down, but it would likely wear unevenly, so accuracy should go way down.

I'm wondering whether a glass barrel would be possible... :P

thanks, i actually was unsure about what type of difference there really would be for an extra 50mm, i actually just wanted to maintain the 'stock' (barrel length) aspect of the gun more than I was hoping for a huge performance increase over the 650

glass is a way cool idea...

beginning reasearch...

maybe something like ceramic would be cool

durability would be through the roof

One thing you need to keep in mind, is that ceramics are very brittle. You're going to want some sort of composite. (that's why we put rebar in bridges. steel is good in tension, concrete is good in compression)

http://www.ortechceramics.com/Cerami...FQTrKgodgzrt3A

http://www.iqsdirectory.com/ceramic-...ceramic-tubes/

you'd have be 'gentle'

i also thought titanium bb's would be cool. couldnt find any though.

Teflon coat on the inside might do well for you. Not sure quite how resistant it'd be but I'd think less friction down the barrel might work well with the way an airsoft gun operates.

maybe depleted uranium

... Or y'know..

You could upgrade the parts that will make much more of a difference than a tightbore. (I have owned, upgraded and sold a RS SVD)

Upgrade the hop-up rubber, get a SCS, polish the gearbox, throw a stronger motor and an intellgent MOSFET in there.

Done.

the RS SVD doesn't need a barrel upgrade. In fact, You wont even notice a difference.

thank you. i very much appreciate any info provided by an ex/owner of this particular gun. i will definitely be reviewing my list of potential upgrades.

do you have any brand specific recommendations? how about a 170 spring?

ARS hop-up rubber, Shredder's Concave Spacer

Mill the top part of the barrel down so you're able to fit an 11.1 stick LIPO in there,

wire in a trigger master, polish the gearbox, check AOE, break in the gears and shimming.

Other than that... these things are nearly perfect.

170 spring is overkill. At most I'd go with a M135. Field limit for sniper rifles in ontario require certification... I'm not sure about their semi auto sniper rules either.

i dont think i intend to be a field player, more of an admirer/collector of weapons and id just like to see it maxed out

apparently, i have much reasearch to do on airsoft mechanics. im new to this but i'm no fool mechanically. if i can get my hands and eyes on it, i WILL make the modifications with loving care and precision

money is no object if it will make this the ultimate gun.

Seeing you are a cnc machinist, why don't you try delrin within a stainless steel sheath? You need a 4 axis cnc (or 5) :)

that would more of a specialized lathe application...mills are not ideal for making long skinny tubes

Hmm, I'd imagine making delrin molds wouldn't be thaaatt hard :P, using the steel rod idea from earlier.

i never disrespected anyones opinion, i just didnt like the implication that i'm some kind of fool

i really do appreciate the feedback though

Dont want to post useless comments, but this is airsoft.... not Real steel... our ammo are too light and small to be super accurate... (dont want to go further into physics)
Also... spherical projectile.... not accurate... lol

BTW: the Real steel Dragunov isnt as accurate as the video games /movies show, it's a cheaply made sniper rifle...lol

PS: You might want to edit and add stuff to your previous posts, instead of multi-posting...

Farthest shot I've ever heard of is ~140 yards by a 650 fps gas m200 (intervention for you cod'ers :P )

I'm not an engineer yet, but for what I've learned so far I don't believe you'll be able to achieve a good enough surface finish with carbon fiber, let alone outperform current offerings.

You'd run into a couple problems with CF. First will be packaging vs. strength.

Different materials have different properties and strengths. While you could wrap up some cloth around a long mandrel and produce a tube that looked like a barrel you would have a problem

You would have to duplicate the OD of the metal barrel so it would slip inside the cosmetic outer barrel. As a result you'd have a soda straw strong tube there. Same goes for glass, ceramic and the rest of the exotic choices.

After that price will kick in, the CF has to be laid up by hand.

Then you'll have the seam since CF is a cloth that's wrapped up and impregnated with resin. That means a ridge inside the barrel. Now maybe you can do something fun with that and give it a twist like a TK barrel but once again you spending more time by hand dealing with this.

CF is a great material when you do something like aircraft or a car's frame or body where the outside is smooth but the inside can be left rough and unfinished. For an airsoft barrel what counts is the inside. The opposite of the normal use of the material. That's not saying it would be fully impossible to do, just the expense of doing it would invalidate the exercise.

You might actually be right, like I said I haven't taken Chem in a while so if all you need is something conductive then that would work but I swear that I remember it's like the cations and anions in the solutions that get attracted and "plate" the material or something.

As for powdercoat you also might be right as well. I know it's got something to do with introducing static electricity into the material and the "pigments" plating themselves onto the object.

Glass, I could see so many problems, plus you have the problem of people possibly (accidentally?) running something like BioBB's or other such BB's that are known to make glass shatter (ie. ceramic spark plug + glass).

I just suggested glass because it is relatively easy to work with, and because it is very smooth, and sort of as a joke :P.

How I understand it, electroplating is just when you give your piece (our barrel in this case) one charge and your plating (it would be like a metal solution of some sort) another charge. When you put them together, they will attract, and you should be able to control the thickness by either duration or intensity, or both(voltage or current, I don't remember ><). I'm not even sure anymore if the piece needs to be conductive, you just need a separation of charge (one case is cations and anions). I haven't taken chem in awhile either, so I'm borderline making stuff up, so don't be afraid to call me out :P

If you were going for CF, follow what the market is doing..

Stainless steel barrel with a CF outer sleeve.

http://www.carbonfiberbarrel.com/
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=422271

i really don't see how it would be a better idea to make it from CF rather then have a conventional (SS) one made for you by a company that has a reputation for making them well, and at worst you can return a non-functional/damaged/incorrectly made barrel and get another one.

IF carbon fiber barrels gave any benefit, i guarantee you someone in japan or the philippines would have done it and while i know that innovation is needed and we should always think outside the box, i believe that you'll be happier with a 'ready made' barrel.

less stress and less to go wrong :)

unless you want this as your project, in which case please tell us the results when you get them back :)

also, electroplating CF, it's not easy.
check the US patent office for the latest procedures and ideas. There is one for carbon filament involving the use of a coupling agent, metallization procedure, electroless plate it and then electroplate. resulting in a higher adhesion characteristic.

problem is that carbon fiber conducts along the strands very well but across the strand it's a pretty good insulator.

Had to reply
 

Hi gang,

Carbon fiber is my game, and at one time, I too was thingking about offering carbon fiber barrels. But it'd be just another "What else could I make from Carbon" thing, so I didn't start it.

The OP is talkng about pultruded carbon fiber tube, that any hobby store can get (see BF Carbon). Those tubes are made with all the fibers going in one direction, so they are strong lenthwise, but crush easily. No good for airsoft. Must be stong!

Then there are filament-wound tubes. The fibers' arrangement is going in more directions, so the tube is stronger. See composite paintball air tanks.

Then there is wraped tubes. The carbon is hand-wrapped around a mandel, and then compressed onto it via vacuum-bagging.

The last two methods are best because it's going to make a very strong lay-up.

To make a good carbon fiber barrel (how I'd do it), the mandrel ( a precision groung, highly-polished tool-steel mandrel), must be made. The first layer against the mandrel (treated with mould-release agents), is a graphite powder-rich epoxy resin mixture. This will make the inner surface very hard and very slick, like the running pads of lah-dee-dah hydroplane race boats. So tuff and slick, that bearings for shaft outputs can be made with it.
Next, the reinforcing carbon fiber layers added, the hole thing bagged up, and cooked in an oven, so that the epoxy cures to it's hardest state. Also, the steel mandrel expands in the oven, slightly making the carbon tube bigger, so that when it cools the mandrel can be pulled out. The size of the mandrel would have to be ground to a diameter, that reflects the expension to the exact temperature expansion.

So no need to electroplate anything. And yes Carbon Fiber conducts.

The outside of the barrel then would have to be shaped, to fit in the gun.
Unlike metal, you can't just grind into the stuff to make slots, and such. The fibers get cut / discontinued, and now there is a weak non-reinforced area that will fail. Giving Carbon fiber even more bad rap, when it is always the engineering that fails, not the material!

So, an outside mould would be needed as well, and a moulding method called compression-moulding will be needed. A precise shape inside, and a precise shape outside, to jam the fibres into a solid super-strong shape. End result....Very Expensive precision tooling needed, very expensive product. A really fucken good product, but will be to expensive. And not needed, since stainles, coated aluminum, brass etc are all doing a super job, and doing it very effiently production wise.

wow..great posts and great ideas...this is the kind of thing i was after, im not here to push anything, just playing with ideas. thanks guys. i look forward to more interesting discussions and i'm glad to have 'joined' this forum.

(shakes head)... some really dumb ideas here.. CF should never be used in an application where friction could be applied to it. CF is a structural material, not for use as a mechanical replacement for metals.
i don't understand why anyone would want to even try and make something like this.. you want a light barrel? get one made from aluminum.
the whole idea behind this thread should fall under the saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
i could build a car out of Lego and tooth picks.. doesn't make it a good idea. stick to punching numbers into a cnc machine, leave the engineering to engineers.

this is the same guy that thought OC filled bb's were a good idea...

Another horrible idea, surface hardness of the material is an important factor in determining the life and precision of the barrel. If you have a material moving along another material of the same magnitude of hardness, you get wear on both your barrel and BB, surface hardness is related to the wear resistance of the material, who is going to spend that extra amount hardening a soft material when metal is cheaper and more available. Same principle as to why guns have hardened steel barrels that shoot out softer materials such as lead, brass, copper etc.

There are many tooling additives that can be added to plastics, to give the very hard surfaces. See carbide tooling powder or gelcoat, and ceramic powder. Or the graphite mentioned earlier. Not to mention the reduced friction of polished graphite.

The fibers would not be directly contacting the projectile. They would be used only for their structural properties. The projectile would contact the hard coating.
Maybe some of the harder BB's (like ceramic) might start to gaul the surface, but I'm sure that will happen with whatever is used for a barrel, that is softer than ceramic.

Main thing...Carbon fiber not needed for barrels.

Reinforced plastics for grips, stocks and other furniture sure, But no fiber look on a gun. It just looks dumb and out of place.

Even though Such exotic reinforcements came from the defense industry, cosmeticizing of the reinforcement to sell it to the masses, has made it look outta place on arms. I think anyways. Next fad will be gun-bluing your Honda hoods....:)

why do you even want a 6.01 barrel? It isn't ideal for accuracy. Stick with a 6.03 or 6.04 for ideal accuracy results.

He is using a new material that does dampen the vibrations which could mean that at 6.01 he could achieve what one would normally get with a 6.03 barrel with 6mm bbs. The BB could make less contact with the barrel while still providing the air behind the BB. Still speculation until we get some results in.

This is experimental and I'm glad he went with the 6.01 because he could be on a new barrel that would possibly be more effective in accuracy which a lot of people would be extremely interested in.

Also if the 6.01 with 6mm BBs is a failure he can go pick up 5.94mm bbs, but let's hope the consistency of the barrel is more than enough for a 6mm BB's.


(TO OP) - be sure to check the diameter of each BB you fire and keep em clean so we can get some consistent figures we can go by when you get the barrel done. We don't want to see deviations because of a BB infraction.

http://www.deadlywind.com/products/8...cf-barrel.aspx

its been in use in paintball for a long time. now granted, the paintball isn't touching the barrel on the way out as much as a bb would be but the idea is still the same.

Yeah that's what sparked my interested in the CF barrel because I was familiar with the paintball one. The problem about the airsoft one is that I could not for the life of me find anyone who has ever done it.

In theory it should apply, but in practice... could be a whole different issue.

I'm pretty excited to see the results from the tests.

The surface of a plastic bb is a lot harder then the gelatin shell of a paintball.

It might work but for what? 2000bbs?

You will get abrasion and the 6.01mm wont stay at 6.01mm forever

I dont understand why you try to reinvent the wheel.... I mean a 6.01mm barrel is a freakin 6.01mm no matter what its made of... and they are proved to suck.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...ghlight=6.01mm
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...ghlight=6.01mm

I agree with you on all the points you had listed... had to try it out for myself too so I could achieve the perfect balance between range and consistency with my near full PDI L96.

Right now it's an experiment.
In conventional tight bore barrels the BB's make contact with the barrel more frequently with a 6.01 than a 6.03 but it's the carbon fiber and resin/epoxy that could provide enough dampening from the impact from the initial hit that could cause less impacts as it travels down the barrel and will make the BB float more fluidly through the barrel providing better accuracy at that size.

My initial concern (page 1 of this thread) was the ability for the barrel to hold up after X amount of rounds are put through it. Carbon fiber is generally held together with resin and/or epoxy which will wear away after use giving inconsistency through the barrel over time.

People have discussed other materials to use as an alternative (read the previous pages in the thread as they have been discussed), OP decided to still move forward with the project. Depending on what he chooses to hold it together hasn't been determined but many ideas were thrown out there for him to try to help him build the best carbon fiber barrel possible. I personally like the electro plating idea that Krap mentioned to help keep the barrel consistent over a longer period of time.

He is basically trying something new that no one here has really tried. I'm interested in the results because he could be on to something that could better the entire airsoft community for both range and accuracy.

Keep in mind the wheel was invented, but ideas were thrown at it to make it as efficient as possible, such as gears, car tires, fans, barrings, etc. Right now he is doing the same thing. He is trying out a new material that no one knows about because no real tests have been done and if they have no one has really posted anything about any results. You can't really say that a carbon fiber 6.01 or 6.03 will be better because you can't find any results about it. Sure you can go by conventional tight bore barrels, but it's not like he is using the same materials that a tight bore barrel has.

It's an experiment and quite frankly I'm fully supporting him on this idea. If he fails he can try smaller sized BB's which are more common in a random bags of BBs than it is to find larger sized BB's. BB manufactures have anywhere from 0.00mm to 0.1mm (sometimes even more with crapy manufactures) deviances in sizes in their packs of BBs. Easier to go down than up in size.