Canadian Vs. Overseas businesses
 

If the Canadian market could be penetrated (tee hee) by American distributors/retailers, who would promise to lower prices for airsoft replicas in Canada, would you buy their products or stick with the current "made in Canada" retail/distribution chain?

State any reservations you have (ie: 'national loyalty', friendship, etc.)in the comments.

why is the poll closed?

I'd vote but it said the poll is closed.I myself go for honest to
the customer retailing.If the Americans or other national parties
can bring it in without the massive markups that have been seen
in the past and SOME current retailers.Then yes I'd buy from them.
BUT,if I had a choice between two equal retailers,one from Canada
and the other outside our country,I'd stay in country.:cool:

+1.... 200-300% markup isnt a good thing... :(

I would buy from the one I am getting the best deal from

Now not the cheapest deal I mean the best deal.. If if others started to offer guns to Canadians for a price but the local gun (exact gun) was a bit more but local then local of course.

Everyone always says Airsoft is a 1k start up hobby/sport..

why not make is a $600 start up hobby/sport if we can..

At the same price i would buy Canadian but if i can pay whats the American players pay for their airsofts; i would buy from an American company.

All things being equal I would buy Canadian. And would continue to do so even with a markup that is equal to or less than 60% over what overseas retailers sell for.

However when I repeatedly find product selling in excess of 100-300% markups and in some extreme cases that I have seen 750% disparity between a Canadian price and a US price for a gun that was brought in via the states. I am truly disheartened. That being said, there are people RIGHT NOW within Canada that are working to provide good quality products for reasonable markups. And I can live with that.

TL:DR Version

In a perfect world our sport would be 100% clear as day legal, and we would pay exactly the same what everyone else pays. Until that day, I will support the retailers here in Canada that offer quality products at fair prices.

I feel like somone is raping us on the mark up here in Canada, If other retailers were to come in with better pricing on the same products then I'm going to save some money and buy from them. That being said I'm sure that if these other countries were to get involved here in Canada our Canadian retailers/ distributors would have to face the market and drop the mark ups by alot! Of course I'd rather buy local and put my money into the hands of other Canadians but I don't want to feel like I coulld have bought 4 of the same thing for what I just paid for one.

You know, outsiders don't need to be involved in order to force Canadians to lower their prices.
If only someone in Canada took a stand and just started charging lower prices on his/her own free-will, and agreeing to reduce their profits by a little, then they'd get more frequent buyers, which they may profit in the long run.

true, but I'd like to know where the retailers come up with the pricing that they set? Most retailers have almost exact same pricing is this the lowest that they can offer and still turn a profit? Retailers lets hear it!

Obviously most folks would buy from the retailer with the lowest prices. If prices are equal then I would buy Canadian. The reason that the retailers don't lower prices is that they don't have to. Supply and demand, currently there is more demand than supply so prices are artificially high.

Unless your honestly expecting them to show up and say.. Oh you got us.. yea we love money. Then your going to be waiting a while.

There is no justifiable reason why there's this high of a markup unless its going towards bribes for Customs officers. (THAT'S A JOKE LADIES AND GENTS*)

And to further elaborate, Personally I have always been a one retailer kinda guy. I shopped with Tru for a long time, because he always delivered and was prompt and had great comms. Also he had fair prices. Now that Im back in the sport Im looking for the "new" retailer whom I will buy my stock from, and there are a few that are looking promising. Don't loose faith.

*Im sure customs officers are all of the highest moral fiber and would never accept a bribe nor tolerate one being offered nor am I implying that doing so is either the method by which retailers import their product nor am I suggesting you attempt bribery to allow you to import.

I think I would buy in Canada, keep the dollar in country. Not that a small purchase like that would really affect anything anyways.

Prices in Canada have never been better and to those who think that their pockets are being raped now well...at least you weren't around a few years ago because the pricing then probably would have killed you.

The half-clear guns everyone gets from CAS are at the same price because CAS artificially inflates the price to begin with. It's not the retailer's fault.

The current wave has wiped out a lot of charisofters investment portfolios but what can you do.

Gee I clearly remember what I paid when I got started, and I can tell you that I never paid a 700% markup.

But in all honesty you are right, things are getting better and right now they are plenty of honest retailers selling quality product for Fair prices.

I completely agree with you, clearly there are legitimate reasons for some of the disparities that are easy to understand.

Here's a hypothetical situation, Lets say Im a retailer. And I set up a system where by you request items from me. I have you select said items using Red wolf airsoft's website, thus clearly showing you what they are going to cost me. Only for me to turn around and demand that you pay 300% markup PLUS shipping on top. Is this fair? Considering that I the retailer shoulder no financial risk as I force you to pay upfront.

If anyone. And I mean anyone can tell me the justification for that then by all means...

One thing to remember is that if someone say in the US was to distribute guns in Canada they would be selling them to someone that was then going to retail them so we would in fact be buying "Canadian".

Also the people that currently deal direct with the manufacturers are super inflating the prices as anything from over seas doesn't cost that much more to ship to Canada over the US nor is it that much more difficult to bring them in (if the guidelines are met)

the more competition the better IMO, prices will get to where they should be and there will be more B&R shops with product (this will save in shipping as well as help your local community)

Wait wait wait wait stop for a second....something just occurred to me.

As it stands right now we already have some retailers that source their product their American suppliers. However we also have retailers who sourced direct from Asian suppliers and even a couple of folks who source from factory.

Aside from low end garbage that I wont even count and the fact that most of the actual American brands are asian rebrands....are you guys picking it up yet?

Whats the point of another middle man? I dont see any point in adding another party to the story. More hands means more money involved most of the time. It would be all fantastic fine and dandy if it were some how possibe for an American company to source airsoft guns direct from their manufactures and then some how magically get them into Canada for an extreme low cost. There was another point I had as well but I cant remeber what it was about...I think it had something to do with donuts.

Maybe not 700% but now a days BNIB M4 CA goes for about 5-600CAD as opposed to 8-900CAD. There is a noticeable difference that's for sure.

and what has been will be again, and again and again and again.
I predict a new newb "is this a good gun thread" with in the next 36 hours.
Another "what good for under $200" with in 48 hours and possibly another sky is falling thread sometime next week.

So if the Americans can bring items into the US and sell for lower costs why can't the Canadians if they are dealing direct?

All I am saying is bring it on and in for that matter who is it gonna hurt? If the Canadian distributors think it will hurt them then that means they know what are over priced....same goes with the retailers.

If they think the prices they sell for the stuff is fair and good they have nothing to worry about right?

Ah the question that many people have asked over many years. I have no direct answer for you...or at least not an answer you would want. So here is a picture of an onion instead.

http://michaelscomments.files.wordpr...-centurion.jpg

That sure is a nice onion isnt it?

Personally I mark up items I carry anywhere from 15-80%. It depends on the item, where it comes from, and how it was shipped. It also depends on the popularity of the item, and how long I think it's going to sit on the shelf. Most things I list at MSRP if possible. I'm not trying to rip anyone off, but g'damn I have alot of expenses because of this business. Sooner than later, it will be my only livelihood, and I will be using it to pay all the bills, mortgage, and to pay for food.

Because of this, things will probably be marked up a bit more.

Personally, I think the reason our stuff (I'm talking legal stuff here, not smuggled or BFL abused guns) is marked up SO high compared to american stuff... is the demand.

An american retailer can sell 100 guns in a day for example. They have small markup, but they make up for it with the fact that they have the market to sell many, many guns.

Here... I might sell none in a day, some days 2 or 3. I can't afford to sell them for less. It's not because people are willing to pay it, or that I want to "get rich", it's just that I need to make a certain amount of profit in a month to pay the bills and then to buy more product.

People are so quick to jump on CAS and even 007 for charging "300%" markup on guns that cost next to nothing in other countries... but the markets are absolutely MASSIVE in those other countries. How many retailers does CAS and 007 have here that they can wholesale to? Hardly any! How are they supposed to maintain their M-F businesses if they don't make enough money on the products that they do sell?

That being said, I will support Canadian businesses as much as possible. I do buy from american and asian wholesalers, but anything I can get here in Canada, I will.

That's my couple cents!

Jeff

Your never going to get an answer to that.. Even though you already know the answer.. We all do and no one will admit it too themselves nor will anyone say it out loud because frankly its not very pleasant.

And Jeff, Im not pointing fingers at anyone least of all you. But frankly in the same argument Ive had people say that Demand is high therefore prices are high, and Ive had people say Demand is low so therefore prices are high. Ive had people justify it all kinds of ways. But it does not really matter, because the people that are operating legit business and are selling for reasonable markups are not the problem. We understand and can accept the fair prices that are being offered by 80% of the retailers.

You know it and I know it, Everyone knows who's the elephant, we just don't want to talk about them.

This will open a can of shitfest that some of us would like to forget, any chance of any of us bringing anything in with any blessing from the authorities died with a certain importer long ago. What ever Mach1/safesoft are doing are the same thing in a different time and also a lot more responsible. Whatever or wherever it comes from we can still get our "toys" the high price we pay is a small price for all the headaches that the retailer have to go through..........My opinion is if you want a certain item bad enough then you better be willing to pay for it, whether it originate from Canadian or American retailer it comes from the same place and our money is going to neither the American or Canadian economy. The Bottomline is as long as I can get my "toys" I really couldn't give two shit where it comes from.

I for one can handle the steep price if it keeps these out-of-school-ready-to-pown creeps off the field. I know a rich jerk can always buy in but if you eliminate his six retard friends due to price then I smile. Ya our american cousins get a better deal, but they also have more 14 yr olds with CA or G&P m4 set-ups that I refuse to play with. Given the chance to save I would jump at it but at what cost? I can clearly understand Jeff and I would reason that us as a community want him to do nothing but help us with supplies. Quit your real job man, live the dream! I need a new 416 soon enough as it is so that should get ya a nice box of KD;)

good post.

Its not only airsoft that has these same issue's. Canada is one of the largest country's in the world with a fairly small population. Its no wonder things are a little more costly. And I think you would see vary quickly if the states started selling in Canada there prices would go up before to long or they would discontinue selling in Canada. Yes airsoft is fairly expensive, but if it was super cheap then the community would slide into a community like paintball vary fast. and I personaly am not a huge fan of that community (ex speed ball player). In my opinion a few grand a year to play a sport I love isn't asking to much. It cost 5000 bucks to put my step bro's in hockey for heck sakes.

Jeff I am not pointing fingers at all at one one retailer

I know you guys need to make money and bay bills as well as live.

You say you sell 1 (maybe 2 or 3) guns a day, now imagine if you could sell those guns at a good price (starter price, say 120 -150 like in the US) how many would you sell then

demand is low here because of the cost IMO, some will say that the low end guns in the US are crap but they are great starter guns and 1000 times better then the walmart guns. If we had those guns in canada what would the market be like then? People would try the sport out more...Like it and spend more on upgrades or new guns.

TS you say Ah the question that many people have asked over many years. I have no direct answer for you...or at least not an answer you would want. So here is a picture of an onion instead. " but sometimes any answer is better then none right????

see the hard core don't want the cheap stuff int he market but its needed.. just as some say they don't want the kids/noobs but they are the next gen of the sport.

I was into paintball before it was huge and saw the same thing and to be honest if was the prizes and crap that killed paintball IMO no the mass market stuff.

Back to Jeff... Yes if something is gonna sit on the shelf longer then you charge more we all get that and respect that.

I have had retail store in the past so I understand, but I also changed distributors if needed to keep price down to I could sell more product faster at a better price.

so My question to the retailers is.. Would you buy wholesale from another company out side of Canada if you could get guns in and sell them at a better price to other Canadians?

A good chuck of the money from any new sales goes directly to Asian between the gun itself, shipping cost and exchange rate.

So When you says Canadian Pride, I dont buy that. Because very little money ends up in the retailer's hands. The rest goes to the importer, shipping and to Asian.

true, but the little of money that the retailer see's keeps food in him and his family's mouth, and guns in your hand. I mean im fairly new to airsoft, and in my few months of research I saw price drops in local store's. so it is coming down as the sport grows. And as the sport clears its legality. Do i want things to be cheaper so I can buy more? yes, but do I also want to keep Canadians selling to Canadians? Defiantly. A lot of Canadian retailers bust there balls to get the guns in our hands, that's vary apparent. So for there hard work I can live with a bit of mark up, hell my cellphone provider is raping me where the sun dosent shine, that bothers me more then my friendly neighborhood airsoft retailer having his turn too lol, at least he works a little for it. heck just my opinion, all in all I just want to say I appreciate what a lot of retailers have done for the sport. and what people like saint have done.

My business will stay in Canada for the time being. (not that I actually have a choice atm so that claim is pretty usless ha ha but I look loyal though don't I? ^^)

hahahahaha the poll results..... :D...
on another forum I participate in, all polls must contain the option of "carrots"
We should have a mandatory choice on all polls here on ASC ... where one choice must be "Fish Sticks"

High demand for a product shouldn't equate to higher prices. Lower prices gives more people an opportunity to get into something they might otherwise not bother with.
Some might argue that if you aren't willing to invest then you shouldn't be playing the game, true to an extent but look at it from a different angle.

Guitars, they range from dirt cheap to stupidly expensive. It is a hobby that can be gotten into on the cheap and when you approach someone else with your cheap guitar they don't look down on you, they go "man, that'll get you started but wait till you get your hands on one of these (insert brand x guitar here).

Airsoft from an outsiders perspective comes off like this, you buy a kraken or broxa to get a feel for it and people will either ridicule you for having a pos gun or someone will say "hey, its a start, maybe not a great start but you can work your way towards this (insert x brand gun here). Sometimes all people can afford is the lower end of the spectrum and while it is nice to say "save for something better, sometimes something better isn't always an option for some"
If the option to enter into the game with a lower price point isn't there then you won't see an influx of players and I think the one thing most of us want is more people playing the game.

Where am I going with this?

While the argument that high demand equates high prices seems valid to some people, some people don't buy it.
You would think that higher demand would mean a slightly lower price since they would be able to move more product.

If you're able to get a quality gun that someone is selling elsewhere for $600 into the hands of someone for $500 you've just made a customer. That person will remember that they got a good deal and keep coming back, they'll recommend that retailer to their friends and they'll spread the word.
We luckily have a store here like that and someone running it that is trying to spread the word for the airsoft scene in our location so kudos to him.

I don't think anyone should hold it against a retailer for the prices they list their product at. They really are limited on what their able to and we should support them as best we can.
We can't even say how much product the distributors bring in, I suspect part of them charging what they do is because they don't bring a lot of stock into the country.
I wouldn't want to import product that wasn't going to sell quickly and if I'm not importing a lot of product then shipping and storage costs are going to hurt me.

Having a US distributor may not be a bad thing, closer product could mean lower costs in the long run but, I don't import guns so I can only speculate.
I do know we shouldn't be harping on the retailers for trying to supply us with the guns we want.

Although, this is a topic thats been beaten, debated and discussed so many times before its starting to look like a halloween pumpkin that was left outside over the winter.

I think one of the reasons why prices in Canada are so high may be because retailers don't order a lot of stock to get wholesale discounts, therefore they need to sell it at a high price to make profit. Some retailers that do imports or custom orders also have high prices probably for the same reason, because they're ordering just one item for you and although they do batch orders because of multiple individuals, I think discounts only applies to a large quantity of the same item. It also doesn't help if they get their guns from another retailer, instead of warehouses or direct.

How many retailers actually do large wholesale orders? If they don't, then maybe they should do really large orders, so that each unit they buy is very cheap and then when they sell it (us in Canada), they can sell it maybe just a little more than US prices to be comparable.

I agree with the statement about demand and the number of retailers. It's comparable like clothing retailers. Eg. Abercrombie and Fitch or Hollister vs Old Navy. There's like 1 Abercrombie & Fitch in Toronto, the next one is in Etobicoke, but that's it. The prices for these clothing is über high vs Old Navy, where there is many locations in Toronto and their clothing is pretty damn cheap. Some shop at A&F, but many shop at Old Navy due to easy access and inexpensive prices.

I'm just trying to analyze or understand the situation here, but I do really appreciate the retailers on here. If it weren't for you, many of us wouldn't have guns in the first place. Keep it up guys.

Yes of course, sometimes being the keyword. When I was in visiting towns around Guangdong province back in China when I was on vacation I swear I ate things that were not chicken, beef or pork but the meals were delicious and I would much rather not know the truth about the origin of the meat.

I believe you already know the answer to your original question, its just a matter of how you wish to interpret it...or if yo wish to accept it that is...either or...fish sticks....onions....fish sticks...pie...fish stick and onion pie... nom nom nom.

Did i forget to open the poll, or did somebody close it... What a waste of a good poll for faq sake

The key to lower price is simply volume. And we don't have it in Canada. We're getting there, but you have to remember Canada's population and economy is commonly compared to that of the state of California. And with the restrictive gun laws and attitudes up here, the actual proportion of interest here versus south of the border is lower as well.

Jeff's explanation sums it up pretty good I think. Also, don't forget, most retailers are financing their 60 day shipments with 9 to 14% money - thats what secured business credit goes for these days. I'm lucky because I have a house and a secure line of credit I borrow against so its around 3%. That savings gets passed onto my customers. But without that I can tell you my prices would be higher, thats for sure.

i agree 100% on that line

investing?
 

Is that like investing in your childs education by buying Star Wars toys/pokemon?

Hey I'll let them play with them when they're ready! For now I'm just keeping them safe on the shelf.

Someone said earlier that supply and demand didn't answer it, but I think it does. If you import 10 guns a month (let's just say...) and you sell those 10 guns in the first day, you have nothing to sell for the rest of the month. That means that the price is too low. If you sell less than the 10 guns, then the price is too high. The equilibrium price is there the supply and demand curves meet. Ideally, the seller will sell 10 guns a month, sometimes all 10, sometimes less. Until he can increase the supply, he must keep prices higher. So if people keep buying, he will keep having to increase prices until he can afford to expand (lets say 15 guns a month). Then he will have 15 guns to sell, so he can lower prices to try to sell all 15. Guns sitting on the shelf are wasted money, no guns on the shelf are wasted money. (sorry to have to say that, but it's the truth) It's a consumer market.. I do agree that sometimes the markup is too high, and they could be making more money with a higher turnover rate, but things are the way they are. True, if one seller decided to mark up 20% and had a ridiculous turnover rate, prices would drop, but eventually, all of the smaller shops would close and there would only be a few big sellers. This is when they can control the market and charge whatever they want. Competition=lower prices. Collaboration=higher prices. Ever hear of a company who was doing very well, and after they expanded, they failed, become they overestimated demand? I have..

Un otro problema es el gobierno :P.

Btw, how are there 84 million votes?-

If only I could go out to a skirmish using canadian tire cheapsoft...

I have a feeling that if canadian prices drop as low as american prices (not even china or HK price) the sellers would see the volume that they need. In Hong Kong, Japan and other countries its not unheard of people having multiple AEGs, some people even buy just for the sake of collecting the model. Now just imagine if you get hong kong online price (actual price is lower when your buying there according to your ability to haggle) :)

Dream on.... :)

I would make an attempt to support Canadian businesses when I can, as I do now with parts and other stuff I need. I still end up buying a bunch of stuff overseas because they come out much cheaper than buying the same item in Canada, and often with the same delivery time.

But dollar for dollar, if something is comparable in Canada, that's where my money will go. I don't even mind paying a small percentage more to keep it local. However, in many cases, that just won't happen. Things just cost more in Canada.

I think Canadian business is fine and great, but really, if i can get something for significantly cheaper overseas, then my money is going overseas 9 times out of ten. I'll buy from a friend or an acquaintance if i feel their price is reasonable, and i'll pay a bit more for convenience if necessary, but really: the price of airsoft in canada is not reasonable.

I would love to have so much money that i could afford to pay a very large premium and put other people's kids through college so i can get warm fuzzies about 'supporting' canadian business. Unfortunately thats not reality for myself and (i would suggest the majority of) others.

The reality of business is compete or die, a price low enough to compete and high enough to make a profit. If some of the regulatory barriers were lowered, all the people who have been making shit tons of cash either retailing or distributing airsoft guns would have their profits instantly slashed and burned, because they would have to lower their prices to compete with the new guys entering the market, and the staggering profits would likely line up with US retailers (plus a bit, because canada just seems to get screwed a tad on pricing for whatever reason). I can only hope this happens. I have respect for everybody retailing airsoft, but honestly put: I hope the supply chain expands to stamp out this habitat for gouging that we have now.

Sorry to all you canadian retailers, but my money means more to me than your profits. that's just the nature of business, no hard feelings.

Polls attract spam bots.

The poll was not wasted. 84,625,413 votes confirmed that people like fish sticks.

That's 1-2% of the world population.

I think that if prices were lower demand would be higher, no doubt I'd already own a dozen AEG's if I was paying US pricing at Canadian dollars! That does of course open Airsoft to the young, stupid, and horribly immature. So long community, hello daycare/romper room
I don't want to see a bunch of retarded kids acting like morons at FR <-- (kitchener local field).

Approximately 1.26% of the worlds population.

The young and stupid as per current situation would still be over 18. It would open the hobby to a lot more people though who previously cant afford to spend 500-1000 bucks on a gun alone. It would be nice to see people being able to afford whatever model they fancy instead of having to make do with a 2nd hand AEG which sells more than the price of a brand new one across the border.

I think at first demand would be very high if prices went down, but after awhile, demand would go down, and prices would go back up. I agree they are at an artificial high right now, and the price would go down some, but I don't think things will change much until the problems with importation get sorted out. It's not the dealers'/sellers' fault for the high prices... Also notice that demand is not one to one, and not linear for that matter. If you raise demand by 10%, the number you sell is not reduced by 10%. If the price drops by 50%, your aren't only 2 times more likely to buy something.. it's probably closer to 5-10x more likely. One thing sellers could do is have people pay up front, and after the order gets large enough, buy in more volume. Once they get a reputation, prices will go down and selection will go up imo. It might take longer to get enough people in the "pool" but you'll be able to get what you want, and for cheaper. I'm not sure if people already do this, but I think it's one way to make things better.

One more thing is that the more people you get into the hobby the better it is for the sport.

Ex. Philippines
It used to be a really expensive sport during the gas gun days then came the TM which was pretty expensive too now that they have china made guns it just got lots of people into the sport now you see politicians, police and military playing and hosting tourneys. Tough to think that it was once deemed illegal to own one until the police caved in due to sheer numbers and made registration possible.

Same with indonesia where airsoft is just taking off. Do you think UK would have done well if they didnt have the multitude off people pushing for airsoft to become acceptable? Remember that this game is more fun with more people.

I don't see anything wrong with the way things are now

I can buy any gun I want, provided I have enough money and patience

I have multiple games to go to every weekend

I meet plenty of good people for the most part at games

What's the problem now? not enough people?

not enough cheap ass people with fleeting interest in the sport to come to games with their hi-caps and hoody's to gay-up the game for me and the other real airsoft enthusiasts

people that find paintball too expensive because they have to buy paint, so they switch to airsoft to get their shoot 'em up fix

Kidiots on the field annoying me with their whiny voices

You are comparing Phillipines and Indonesia to Canada, I don't know if you know this but Canada as liberal as we think we are the general public are not ready to accept shooting hobby as mainstream there are a lot of anti gun within our society. I can get my guns anytime if the cost and commitment help deters the ex-paintball kids from switching is fine by me, as it is there are way too many idiots in this hobby to sink us with their stupidity. If you look at all the bullshit stuff they posted on you tube you too will cringe with disgust.

+1

Going into a mall in Manila PH, there are 2 lines for men and women to be searched and a sign that says "All firearms must be checked in with security - Management"

I doubt I will never see anything like this in Canada, at least not in my lifetime.

An interesting view indeed, wanting to get airsoft as expensive as possible to separate "the real airsoft enthusiast" from the Wannabe. Well I guess there is nothing wrong with that and if thats what most think then airsoft prices in Canada is where its supposed to be. :)